Wrong Ball Play

[Reffing Rev.]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

For another, a non-player on the sideline could falsely shout something like, "Throw it to Zev.", and it would be legal. Maybe even shout a false count of the play or game clock, but I'm less sure about that.


Robert

Year before last working a game in nw MO all of the first half whenever BJ started his count A's entire sideline would start counting down from 5, I guess so that A would snap the ball and not get the DOG. 4th quarter the opponents break the huddle after what seems like an eternity, and as they come to the line they start counting (BJ has not counted yet), the offense rushes the snap before they are all set. I killed it with a USC on the defense for "false counting" Right or wrong, I stick with that call, clearly the defense was trying to confuse their opponent in a way not allowed by rules.

Some might say that the offense has the responsibility to know the play clock and watch the BJ rather than listen to the defense, but I could say they defense should watch the snap and not listen to the "where's the tee play" too, but i digress.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Reffing Rev.

Year before last working a game in nw MO all of the first half whenever BJ started his count A's entire sideline would start counting down from 5, I guess so that A would snap the ball and not get the DOG. 4th quarter the opponents break the huddle after what seems like an eternity, and as they come to the line they start counting (BJ has not counted yet), the offense rushes the snap before they are all set. I killed it with a USC on the defense for "false counting" Right or wrong, I stick with that call, clearly the defense was trying to confuse their opponent in a way not allowed by rules.

Some might say that the offense has the responsibility to know the play clock and watch the BJ rather than listen to the defense, but I could say they defense should watch the snap and not listen to the "where's the tee play" too, but i digress.

Same thing, different park:

Blue picks White's pocket at the defensive 3-point line. White bench starts to go "5.... 4.... 3.... 2...." and Blue shots just across half and on a breakaway. I waited until the shot was released, and then: "Whack!"

At my whistle, the clock read 0:05. The Blue player totally had time to take it in for an uncontested layup.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by Reffing Rev.

Year before last working a game in nw MO all of the first half whenever BJ started his count A's entire sideline would start counting down from 5, I guess so that A would snap the ball and not get the DOG. 4th quarter the opponents break the huddle after what seems like an eternity, and as they come to the line they start counting (BJ has not counted yet), the offense rushes the snap before they are all set. I killed it with a USC on the defense for "false counting" Right or wrong, I stick with that call, clearly the defense was trying to confuse their opponent in a way not allowed by rules.

Some might say that the offense has the responsibility to know the play clock and watch the BJ rather than listen to the defense, but I could say they defense should watch the snap and not listen to the "where's the tee play" too, but i digress.

Rule 9-5-1d covers this situation. This is the rule for USC and the example is "using disconcerting acts or words prior to the snap in an attempt to interfere with A's signals or movements".

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

Rule 9-5-1d covers this situation. This is the rule for USC and the example is "using disconcerting acts or words prior to the snap in an attempt to interfere with A's signals or movements".

I've always thought that was just to cover trying to simulate A's snap count or other such signal, or trying to drown out their signals, especially since it doesn't say anything about A's trying to simulate B's shift or assignment signals. I never thought it would cover something like simulating a play clock count from the sideline, though "signals" doesn't say it's limited to on-field signals.

I was also thinking of cases where A's sideline falsely gives a play clock count to make B think the snap is coming sooner than it actually is.

Robert

[ref1986]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

Rule 9-5-1d covers this situation. This is the rule for USC and the example is "using disconcerting acts or words prior to the snap in an attempt to interfere with A's signals or movements".

bison,

The problem is that 9-5-1d applies to acts and words by players. A player is someone in the game. "Players" on the sideline are covered under 9-8 and there is nothing in 9-8 to justify a foul on this.

I'm not calling anything. If the QB is dumb enough to rely on the opposing bench to tell him how much time he has, rather than looking to the BJ, he deserves what he got. How stupid can you get?

[parepat]

Let me change it up. Saw a video of this from a college game.

A lines up in shotgun. A snaps the ball to the QB. All A players stay in there stances and do not move. Quaterback stops and looks relaxed. B players stand up and don't move. A-80 the receiver jets down the field and the QB then throws to him for a TD.

My inclination is that this is illegal. However, the rules don't address it specifically.

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by parepat

Let me change it up. Saw a video of this from a college game.

A lines up in shotgun. A snaps the ball to the QB. All A players stay in there stances and do not move. Quaterback stops and looks relaxed. B players stand up and don't move. A-80 the receiver jets down the field and the QB then throws to him for a TD.

My inclination is that this is illegal. However, the rules don't address it specifically.

Why should the rules protect B from being stupid?

[svm1010]

Originally Posted by Mike L

Why should the rules protect B from being stupid?

Cause this isn't about being stupid. This is about it being a football play versus some adminstrative bull crap. Every foodball play is suposed to start the same way via a legal snap (not counting free kicks for you strict interpretationists) That's what the kids are trained for. Now you can argue that this is a legal snap even through it does not pass between the snapper's legs, but this play isn't football, this is a "hah hah Fooled you." Trick plays such as play action, fake punt, swinging gate, and onside kicks are football plays, this isn't. Blow it dead and march em back.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by svm1010

Cause this isn't about being stupid. This is about it being a football play versus some adminstrative bull crap. Every foodball play is suposed to start the same way via a legal snap (not counting free kicks for you strict interpretationists) That's what the kids are trained for. Now you can argue that this is a legal snap even through it does not pass between the snapper's legs, but this play isn't football, this is a "hah hah Fooled you." Trick plays such as play action, fake punt, swinging gate, and onside kicks are football plays, this isn't. Blow it dead and march em back.

It's "hah hah" only because of the "wrong ball" aspect. Otherwise, you're saying the snap "isn't football" just because it's unusual. Even one of the plays you listed, swinging gate, uses an unusual form of snap.

Has it occurred to you that snapping the ball by turning around with it could have deceptive and tactical advantages? At Coach Huey's we're having a discussion about various sorts of advantages that could be gained by unusual forms of snap. One thought is that the turnaround snap could end with the ball's being taken by a back in fly motion, same as the usual motion of the quarterback but eliminating the middleman. Then, because the snapper would have turned to face backward by a motion of both feet, he's eligible to take the ball back by a forward handoff.

If the rules makers wanted to restrict the snap further, they could do so -- as has been done in Canadian football and some forms of touch football, which require the snap to pass between the legs. The only thing the American football rulesmakers wanted to do was to avoid rugby's situation where the live ball could remain in scrimmage for a significant time.

Robert

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by svm1010

Cause this isn't about being stupid. This is about it being a football play versus some adminstrative bull crap. Every foodball play is suposed to start the same way via a legal snap (not counting free kicks for you strict interpretationists) That's what the kids are trained for. Now you can argue that this is a legal snap even through it does not pass between the snapper's legs, but this play isn't football, this is a "hah hah Fooled you." Trick plays such as play action, fake punt, swinging gate, and onside kicks are football plays, this isn't. Blow it dead and march em back.

There's a lot of things I was going to say to this, but decided it would just be better to ask, under what rule do you intend to penalize them? Or is it just because you don't approve of the play you "need" to shut it down?

[Jim D.]

Originally Posted by parepat

Let me change it up. Saw a video of this from a college game.

A lines up in shotgun. A snaps the ball to the QB. All A players stay in there stances and do not move. Quaterback stops and looks relaxed. B players stand up and don't move. A-80 the receiver jets down the field and the QB then throws to him for a TD.

My inclination is that this is illegal. However, the rules don't address it specifically.

At the point everyone stopped and the QB looked relaxed I'd blow the whistle and kill the play to protect relaxed players from being hit. Saftey first, boys! If A failed to advance, that's their option - the down counts.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Jim D.

At the point everyone stopped and the QB looked relaxed I'd blow the whistle and kill the play to protect relaxed players from being hit. Saftey first, boys! If A failed to advance, that's their option - the down counts.

By that logic you could whistle a play dead any time there's a pretended runner. After faking receiving a handoff...why...he might be tackled by mistake...and not be ready for it!

The aforementioned play is no more than an extreme example of a bootleg or bootleg pass. Many times a QB will look relaxed after having pretended to hand the ball off. Are you going to blow the play dead because some players of B may have relaxed once they thought he no longer had the ball?

Robert