wave off flag

[phansen]

When a flag is thrown and a sideline warning is given, is it appropriate to wave off the flag because no yardage is marked off. Some feel it is a good form of communication for spectators, however the book doesn't mention waving off the flag, it just says to give the proper signal.

[With_Two_Flakes]

No. There are other fouls that have no yardage assessed - fouls that are loss of down only eg NCAA 7-3-4 Eligibility lost by going OOB. You wouldn't expect to see a flag waved off for that.

The flag and the subsequent sideline warning signal get their attention, you'll rarely need to throw a 2nd one in a game.

[mbyron]

I thought that the penalty WAS the warning. And I thought that waving off a flag indicated that there was no foul, not that there's no penalty. But then again, I'm new, so I could be wrong...

[Warrenkicker]

You throw a flag because there was a foul. You don't wave off a flag just because there is no penalty yardage enforced. You wave off a flag because there was no foul. This foul has a penalty of a warning. That is why there is a different signal given for the first penalty and all subsequent penalties.

[mikesears]

Isn't there a fundamental that says all penalties are either 5, 10, or 15 yards? I see nothing about a warning as a penalty.

(Sorry, couldn't resist stirring things up a little).

I agree that we don't wave this off because there was a foul.

[jaybird]

Think about this. If a team declines the penalty resulting in no yardage being stepped off, do we wave off the flag?

[Warrenkicker]

Originally Posted by mikesears

...(Sorry, couldn't resist stirring things up a little)...

Well then how about we call it the unpenalized foul as there is no penalty for the foul committed.

[svm1010]

The flag indicates that a foul has occurred. The penalty has more to do with the consequenses of said foul. As we know the distance penalty may be declined even though the foul is accepted...correct? So you can still have a sideline rule violation without requiring a distance penalty.

The foul stands so don't wave off the Flag. The important parties (officials, players, and coaches) will all know what is happening (or should). The fans can pick up a signals reference if they want to educate themselves.

[KWH]

How 'bout the "Penalty" of an "Awarded Fair Catch" for a Kick Catch Interfernce Foul??? Some consider this is a "Zero" yard penalty!
Perhaps we should consider waving this flag off also "because no yardage is marked off!"
We sure don't want to confuse those fans!

[svm1010]

Ok, I see your point. I still maintain that a flag should stand for any "foul" regardless of the distance penalty.

That being said, upon checking the officials manual I found something interesting. On page 22 under "controlling the sideline and team box" is states.....

First violation bt team
"A. Results in sideline warning."
"B. Covering official sound whistle, give proper signal, then report the infraction to R." (note there is no reference to a flag, dropped or otherwise)

On the second violation:
"A.Covering official will drop penalty marker, sound whistle, report infraction tot he referee."

Based on that, the Flag should not even come out until you are going to tack on yardage.

[Jim D]

Originally Posted by svm1010

Ok, I see your point. I still maintain that a flag should stand for any "foul" regardless of the distance penalty.

That being said, upon checking the officials manual I found something interesting. On page 22 under "controlling the sideline and team box" is states.....

First violation bt team
"A. Results in sideline warning."
"B. Covering official sound whistle, give proper signal, then report the infraction to R." (note there is no reference to a flag, dropped or otherwise)

On the second violation:
"A.Covering official will drop penalty marker, sound whistle, report infraction tot he referee."

Based on that, the Flag should not even come out until you are going to tack on yardage.

That's last year's version. The new manual includes "drop penalty marker" on the first violation. You do not waive off this flag.

[KWH]

JIM D is correct! And he beat me to the punch.

Please see 2008-2009 Officials Manual, also page 22, and you will note drop penalty marker, has been added and highlited in GREY!

[svm1010]

Thanks for the correction. Didn't have my 08-09 manual at work.

[Forksref]

FED Rule book, p. 74 at the bottom: Arts 1k,3 - First offense-warning.

"First offense" indicates to me that there is a foul, which requires a flag. The "warning" is the penalty, which has nothing directly to do with dropping a flag.

The flag is very powerful because it is VISIBLE to everyone and it lets everyone know that there is a problem. I have found that coaches are appreciative that there is no yardage associated with the first flag and they actually clean up their act. I've never worked a game where we had to throw a second flag for this.