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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Wed Aug 13, 2008, 03:12pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrenkicker
I'll play devil's advocate then. Say a team comes up to the LOS on 4th down with 11 players wearing eligible numbers and gets into punt formation. These are all athletes so they are all wearing eligible numbers. What would be the indicator to an official that this formation becomes unsportsmanlike?
Warren, if you want to PM me, I'll be glad to discuss it with you. But I don't want to into a big discussion here, where I feel I have to justify what I post from posters who I know aren't going to agree. Drop me a PM on this board or the other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daggo66
Of course the spread offense is not the A-11. My whole point from day one is that the A-11 is not a new offense. It is a FORMATION. The spread is the offense.
Don't piss on my boot and try to convince me it's raining.

That simply is not true. You can try to make it sound that simple but Tom is right. It simply isn't. Had the Fed got off their a$$ and addressed this thing from the beginning, we wouldn't have states going in different directions.
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Last edited by BktBallRef; Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 03:19pm.
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Wed Aug 13, 2008, 03:27pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BktBallRef
Warren, if you want to PM me, I'll be glad to discuss it with you. But I don't want to into a big discussion here, where I feel I have to justify what I post from posters who I know aren't going to agree. Drop me a PM on this board or the other.
Well I am just not seeing how to PM from this board from this work computer. I would like to discuss it a bit so maybe I will try the other board. However I am just curious about the theory North Carolina is using to determine legality. I don't feel you have to justify anything to me at least. You have to do what you are told.
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Wed Aug 13, 2008, 03:37pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrenkicker
Well I am just not seeing how to PM from this board from this work computer. I would like to discuss it a bit so maybe I will try the other board. However I am just curious about the theory North Carolina is using to determine legality. I don't feel you have to justify anything to me at least. You have to do what you are told.
Oh, I know that. I'm glad to discuss it with you. My PM was turned off on this site for some reason. It's back on now.
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old Wed Aug 13, 2008, 06:02pm
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Straight from the snake oil salesmen themselves...the A-11 forum:

I wanted to give you the best possible answer to the question WE get asked every single day, and that is....

HOW MANY TEAMS WILL USE THE A-11 OFFENSE THIS SEASON?

ANSWER:

To date, we have received about 5,000 contacts this off-season regarding the offense. At least 60% of those inquiries have been from coaches at the high school, and collegiate levels, One NFL coach too, etc.

Breaking it Down:

Nearly 15,000 high schools in America play 11-man Tackle football

There are Roughly 1,000 Collegiate & JC teams (Yes, we understand the more restrictive rules on A-11 for now)

So...

Humbly, let us Project at least 10 - 15 % of 16,000 total teams will Implement the A-11 in SOME capacity in 2008.

Whether they use it as their new base offense, in packages and/or as a trick play or two, etc.

Our best guess based on the feedback we are receiving is somewhere between 1,500 - 2,000 teams will use it this year. It could be a tad bit less, or a whole lot more.

AND: It is perfectly OK that in a Few states there is a Loud Minority of people that do not like the innovative and wide-open aspects of the A-11. Their attempting to ban it is Only Hurting the Kids in those few states because Most Kids love playing in this system.

It is going to Really fun to watch the A-11 Offense in action this fall in the states of:

AK, AZ, AR, CA, CO, CT, DE, FL, HI, ID, IL, IN, IA, KS, KY, LA,, MD, ME, MI, MN, MS, MO, MT, NH, NJ, NV, NM, NY, ND, OH, OK, OR, PA, RI, SC, SD, TN, UT, VE, VI, WA, WI, WY.


There are other outstanding developments in the works now that will once again benefit EVERY high school team in the country wanting to take part in the forthcoming projects on the board now with the details being worked out.

Thanks again.
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old Wed Aug 13, 2008, 06:50pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TXMike
It is going to Really fun to watch the A-11 Offense in action this fall in the states of:

AK, AZ, AR, CA, CO, CT, DE, FL, HI, ID, IL, IN, IA, KS, KY, LA,, MD, ME, MI, MN, MS, MO, MT, NH, NJ, NV, NM, NY, ND, OH, OK, OR, PA, RI, SC, SD, TN, UT, VE, VI, WA, WI, WY.


There are other outstanding developments in the works now that will once again benefit EVERY high school team in the country wanting to take part in the forthcoming projects on the board now with the details being worked out.

Thanks again.
Here is a big problem with your numbers. I live in one of those states and I have not heard of a single school that is using the offense. And I have not heard of anyone in my state that has to officiate it. And I live in a fairly well populated state in terms of schools and football programs. And just because some kids like playing it, does not mean the rules should allow it at the end of the day. I am sure the kids that play against it do not like playing against an offense that makes the game into a gimmick.

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  #6 (permalink)  
Old Wed Aug 13, 2008, 07:23pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
And just because some kids like playing it, does not mean the rules should allow it at the end of the day. I am sure the kids that play against it do not like playing against an offense that makes the game into a gimmick.
If we went by the opinion of children I've coached, only pass plays would be legal.
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old Thu Aug 14, 2008, 08:28am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
Here is a big problem with your numbers. I live in one of those states and I have not heard of a single school that is using the offense. And I have not heard of anyone in my state that has to officiate it. And I live in a fairly well populated state in terms of schools and football programs. And just because some kids like playing it, does not mean the rules should allow it at the end of the day. I am sure the kids that play against it do not like playing against an offense that makes the game into a gimmick.

Peace
These are not Mike's numbers. They are from the A-11 website. See the first line of his post.
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old Thu Aug 14, 2008, 10:16am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue37
These are not Mike's numbers. They are from the A-11 website. See the first line of his post.
And that means what? If anything the fact that you are attributing this to a sales website, should illustrate how blow out of proportion this information is. I seriously doubt that many schools across the country are using this offense. With all the states that have outlawed the offense should be enough evidence of that alone.

Peace
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old Wed Aug 13, 2008, 09:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TXMike
It is going to Really fun to watch the A-11 Offense in action this fall in the states of:

AK, AZ, AR, CA, CO, CT, DE, FL, HI, ID, IL, IN, IA, KS, KY, LA,, MD, ME, MI, MN, MS, MO, MT, NH, NJ, NV, NM, NY, ND, OH, OK, OR, PA, RI, SC, SD, TN, UT, VE, VI, WA, WI, WY.
We can remove LA and WY from that list of states. Both have stated the A-11 will be illegal in their states.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KWH
BBR-
Is a fake punt on also illegal in NC?

I would again challange you to explain to me ANY difference between a fake punt and the A-11 Offense?

The A-11 Offense is best described as:
A team that elects to run a variation of LEGAL fake punts.
Nothing more, and nothing less!

Again, BBR; as I have said before, I challenge you to prove me wrong by a NFHS rule!
LOL KWH! I challenge you to show me to show me an NFHS rule that says a player can be ejected for wearing a bicep band!

You and I have had this discussion. I'm not interested in your challenges nor does it mean anything to me that you attended a meeting where some of you decided the offense is legal. As I told you before, your opinion and 99 cents are worth a large coffee at McDonalds's in NC. And GA. And LA. And WY. And WV. And DC.

Further, I don't believe anyone here is is so simple minded as to believe the A-11 is just a fake punt play. But you continue to spin it anyway you like it, as state associations continue to rule it illegal.
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Last edited by BktBallRef; Wed Aug 13, 2008 at 09:43pm.
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Old Wed Aug 13, 2008, 09:51pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BktBallRef
as state associations continue to rule it illegal.
No such luck here. I attended our interpretation meeting tonight and I specifically asked what the thoughts were on this. The state is not commenting one way or the other, nor are they offering any guidance. A few of the guys there (This wasn't our entire chapter, just the rules and mechanics committees) were aware of it and some had heard of a few teams that plan to use it at least selectively.
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Wed Aug 13, 2008, 10:05pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waltjp
No such luck here. I attended our interpretation meeting tonight and I specifically asked what the thoughts were on this. The state is not commenting one way or the other, nor are they offering any guidance. A few of the guys there (This wasn't our entire chapter, just the rules and mechanics committees) were aware of it and some had heard of a few teams that plan to use it at least selectively.
That's unfortunate that they didn't address it at all. Evidently the NFHS Rules Committee has the same philosophy - ignore it and maybe it will go away.
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old Thu Aug 14, 2008, 11:05am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BktBallRef
Further, I don't believe anyone here is is so simple minded as to believe the A-11 is just a fake punt play. But you continue to spin it anyway you like it, as state associations continue to rule it illegal.
Obviously the A-11 is more than just a fake punt play, but basically that is what it is. It makes no sense why your state would rule the A-11 USC instead of just adopting the NCAA rule and basically not allow the numbering exception until 4th down.

This is what the A-11 is



This is a somewhat popular punt formation



What is the difference between this formation and the A-11 on 4th down? All 11 players have eligible numbers. Team can fool around with having the "tackle" actually being the end; the defense must pay attention to who is on the line. Teams can change the spacing between their linemen and make the formation look a lot more like the A-11 picture above. The punter rolls out to the right and has the option to run, pass, or kick.

So now your state is making this formation illegal on 4th down when it had been around well before the A-11 was ever invented. A much better choice would have been to copy the 6 words out of the NCAA rule book.
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old Thu Aug 14, 2008, 11:53am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LDUB
Obviously the A-11 is more than just a fake punt play, but basically that is what it is.
I hope you get an opportunity to re-read what you just wrote and see how ridiculous it sounds. "Obviously a football is not brown but basically it is brown." Good grief.

Quote:
It makes no sense why your state would rule the A-11 USC instead of just adopting the NCAA rule and basically not allow the numbering exception until 4th down.
If you have a problem with the the NCHSAA's decision on the A-11, then 'd suggest you write them. Email addresses are available on their website. Perhaps they'll care what you think. Personally, I couldn't care less.
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old Sun Aug 17, 2008, 03:07pm
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One thing I have not seen posted on this thread but have seen on others...the difference between a fake punt from this formation and the A-11 the fake punt formation probably has the players in position long enough before the snap for the defense and officials to determine who is eligible and who is not. The A-11 has all players off the line (except the center) and then just before the snap, 6 players step up, get in position for 1 second, and then snap the ball. Since those 6 players are going to be different each time and in different locations, it will be almost impossible for the defenders (and most importantly for us...officials) to determine who is eligible. If I'm the umpire and I can't easily tell right away who my G-C-G are because the two guys lined up right next to the center stay in the backfield, then I'm going to be lost on my keys as well.

This offense/formation is a farce and exploiting the spirit of the numbering exception and I hope the NFHS makes a change to match the college rule next year. And I really hope I don't see it all year.
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