Great, I have to deal with A-11

[bisonlj]

One thing I have not seen posted on this thread but have seen on others...the difference between a fake punt from this formation and the A-11 the fake punt formation probably has the players in position long enough before the snap for the defense and officials to determine who is eligible and who is not. The A-11 has all players off the line (except the center) and then just before the snap, 6 players step up, get in position for 1 second, and then snap the ball. Since those 6 players are going to be different each time and in different locations, it will be almost impossible for the defenders (and most importantly for us...officials) to determine who is eligible. If I'm the umpire and I can't easily tell right away who my G-C-G are because the two guys lined up right next to the center stay in the backfield, then I'm going to be lost on my keys as well.

This offense/formation is a farce and exploiting the spirit of the numbering exception and I hope the NFHS makes a change to match the college rule next year. And I really hope I don't see it all year.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

The A-11 has all players off the line (except the center) and then just before the snap, 6 players step up, get in position for 1 second, and then snap the ball. Since those 6 players are going to be different each time and in different locations, it will be almost impossible for the defenders (and most importantly for us...officials) to determine who is eligible. If I'm the umpire and I can't easily tell right away who my G-C-G are because the two guys lined up right next to the center stay in the backfield, then I'm going to be lost on my keys as well.

And yet, that determination was routine before eligible receiver numbering rules came into effect ca. 1960. And during much of that time, determination of position (line vs. backfield vs. just plain illegal) was also arguably more difficult and complicated than since the current rules came into effect (I'm not sure when that was, but around the same time IIRC). And that was with fewer officials on the field, on average. So obviously it was not "almost impossible".

Robert

[BktBallRef]

Offenses and the rules are both much more complex than they were in 1960.

[TXMike]

Source: Anatony of A Game, David M. Nelson

NCAA
1966 - Mandatory numbering for guards, tackles and center of 50-70 established.

1968 - Requirement to have 5 players numbered 50-79 on the line of scrimmage was established after forceful action by one committee member, Coach John Vaught of Mississippi, who had seen his team lose 2 games to the Crimson Tide of Bear Bryant on tackle-eligible passes.

1981- the numbering exception came into existence so that teams no longer had to put numbered vests on subs put in for punt coverage. Excepted players had to report to U before the down.

1985 - Requirement to report was eliminated but language was tightened up to ensure teams did not use the numbering exception to get around the eligibility rules.

Interestng to note what Mr Nelson had to say re the 1985 change (he wrote the book in 1991) "The coaches were placed on their honor and players with 50-79 numbering exceptions in a scrimmage-kick formation were relieved from reporting to the unpire. The system has worked very well; no attempts have been made to usurp the rule."

[JasonTX]

One way to deal with this A-11 is to treat it like the NCAA had done in their philosophies this year. That being, trick plays must be PERFECLY legal. Whatever the rules are for a shift in NFHS make sure they follow them 100%. All players must be legally on the line or legally a back. I'm not a "ticky tack" official but with this formation you sort of have to be.

[kraine27]

Do we have any officials in this conversation that have actually worked games where the A-11 was used? What difficulties, if any, did you face? Do you have any suggestions that would benefit those of us who might encounter these formations this season?

[daggo66]

Originally Posted by kraine27

Do we have any officials in this conversation that have actually worked games where the A-11 was used? What difficulties, if any, did you face? Do you have any suggestions that would benefit those of us who might encounter these formations this season?

I will be working a scrimmage on 8/23. I let everyone know how it went.

[daggo66]

Robert, you are missing one very important part of the eligibility picture with the A-11. It's not as cut and dried as the old days before numbering requirements. The biggest issue in my mind is that with the exception if a player establishes his position on the line as an ineligible receiver, he remains an ineligible receiver throughout the down. Let's say that A line up with 8 men on the LOS with 2 wide outs on the right. The inside receiver is ineligible. He realizes he was supposed to be off the line, so he now shifts to the backfield. In a normal formation he would be eligible, however since this is a scrimmage kick formation he is now an ineligible receiver regardless of where he lines up.

[mbyron]

Our local interpreter reported this week that the A-11 is legal in Ohio. He then started warning us to watch for linemen wearing an eligible number who are covered by an end and therefore ineligible. This made me wonder whether he knows what the A-11 is...

[daggo66]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Our local interpreter reported this week that the A-11 is legal in Ohio. He then started warning us to watch for linemen wearing an eligible number who are covered by an end and therefore ineligible. This made me wonder whether he knows what the A-11 is...

You may have missed an important part of what he was explaining. If that covered lineman, who is wearing an eligible number, steps off the line he remains ineligible throughout the down. In a normal formation if a player is inelgible because they are covered and are wearing an eligible number, steps off the line, they become eligible.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by daggo66

Robert, you are missing one very important part of the eligibility picture with the A-11. It's not as cut and dried as the old days before numbering requirements. The biggest issue in my mind is that with the exception if a player establishes his position on the line as an ineligible receiver, he remains an ineligible receiver throughout the down. Let's say that A line up with 8 men on the LOS with 2 wide outs on the right. The inside receiver is ineligible. He realizes he was supposed to be off the line, so he now shifts to the backfield. In a normal formation he would be eligible, however since this is a scrimmage kick formation he is now an ineligible receiver regardless of where he lines up.

Oh, I know the exception makes it harder than it was back then because you have to keep in mind an initial position and a final position for each of several players. But at least with A-11 you're on notice that that's the basis of the offense, rather than 40+ yrs. ago when a tackle eligible might occur any time as a rare surprise and you didn't notice whether the erstwhile end on that side had lined up sufficiently backward or whatever.

Fed has had a tendency over the years to outlaw plays that had been occurring only rarely, because the officials might not be looking at the right things. With A-11 we have a situation where someone realized that a loophole that was available occasionally, and exploited probably only rarely, could be made available & exploited continuously.

Around 30 years ago (give or take a lot) someone discovered a loophole NCAA had left on altering a rule about a decade earlier. There was no provision to discourage batting forward someone's backward pass unless it went out of bounds. So an ostensible place kick holder tossed the ball into the air and the ostensible kicker made a volleyball serve out of it, followed by a scramble for the ball downfield. I think others were too ashamed to exploit that one, and the loophole was closed for the next season, which was easy because it was just a matter of making a conforming chage they'd forgotten when the original change was made. I don't think Fed's scrimmage kick numbering exception will be as easily disposed of.

Robert

[daggo66]

The team that we thought was going to run the A-11 has decided not to.