How Do You Penalize Chipping by the Offense?

[ajmc]

Flagging this type behavior as a live ball foul, eliminating the score, will likely bring the standard list of predictable howls from the sideline affected, but the lesson learned by the offender, and his team, will last 1000 times longer.

The Referee, or the Umpire or BJ (4 or 5 man) in the case of an interception or advanced defensive fumble recovery, should remain behind the flow just to guard against this type situation.

[Sonofanump]

I read the title and pictured Steve Buscemi in Fargo putting his friend in the wood chipper.

Oh, back to the question, I agree with live ball foul from spot of foul.

[Forksref]

Originally Posted by Sonofanump

I read the title and pictured Steve Buscemi in Fargo putting his friend in the wood chipper.

Oh, back to the question, I agree with live ball foul from spot of foul.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qWFhDvURLg

A good wood chipper is a must in the north country.

[With_Two_Flakes]

Forksref has it exactly right as far as I'm concerned with this type of call, "talk to" if it deserves it, flag if it deserves a flag. His coach will be sure let him know how dumb he was when it costs them a score.

Fargo - certainly in my top 10 films of all time.
Love the way Margie points to the badge on her hat to emphasise she's the police. and Fargo is full of brilliant dialogue.....

Oh, he was a little guy... Kinda funny lookin'.

Say, Lou, didya hear the one about the guy who couldn't afford personalized plates, so he went and changed his name to J3L2404?

Oh, I just think I'm gonna barf.....Well, that passed. Now I'm hungry again.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: I had this situation one time where I flagged an ear-hole cheap hit well behind the play. It didn't go for a TD, but it was a long gain negated. The coach starts screaming at his player, "How can you be so (bleepin') stupid. Do you realize you just cost us xx yards?" And then he says to me, "How could you possibly call that?"

Multiple Personality Disorder is a terrible thing.

[Warrenkicker]

I had a great experience this past season where I nailed a cheap shot quite a distance away from the play and to my surprise the coaches were getting the guilty party out of the game before we could get the initial signal for the foul made. Never heard a complaint and it was my sideline.

[Forksref]

Originally Posted by Bob M.

REPLY:
Multiple Personality Disorder is a terrible thing.

Bob,

MPD is situational, usually correlated with the score or recent events on the field.

[Forksref]

Originally Posted by With_Two_Flakes

Fargo - certainly in my top 10 films of all time.
Love the way Margie points to the badge on her hat to emphasise she's the police. and Fargo is full of brilliant dialogue.....

Two Flakes,
That snow scene by the road was shot about 3 miles from where I used to work. They had run out of snow in Minnesota so they came over here. The paper had an ad for extras for the movie. I decided not to quit my job to work at minimum wage for the movie. At the time, I didn't think the movie could be much if they were shooting here! It turns out to be a classic although I was a little put out at the extremely overdone accents.

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by Forksref

...The paper had an ad for extras for the movie. I decided not to quit my job to work at minimum wage for the movie.

REPLY: About fours years ago, I took a few hours off of work to be an 'extra' in an episode of "Law and Order: SVU" that was being filmed at a local school. I played the umpire in a HS football game (already had the costume) and was on the screen for no more than 2 or 3 seconds. But I did get to catch and throw with Mariska Hargitay and Christopher Meloni before the 'takes' began. Of course the 'role' of U was completely out of character since I'm a BJ/LJ normally.

[kdf5]

Originally Posted by Forksref

Two Flakes,
That snow scene by the road was shot about 3 miles from where I used to work. They had run out of snow in Minnesota so they came over here. The paper had an ad for extras for the movie. I decided not to quit my job to work at minimum wage for the movie. At the time, I didn't think the movie could be much if they were shooting here! It turns out to be a classic although I was a little put out at the extremely overdone accents.

Extremely overdone accents, eh?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Flagging this type behavior as a live ball foul, eliminating the score, will likely bring the standard list of predictable howls from the sideline affected, but the lesson learned by the offender, and his team, will last 1000 times longer.

The Referee, or the Umpire or BJ (4 or 5 man) in the case of an interception or advanced defensive fumble recovery, should remain behind the flow just to guard against this type situation.

Both excellent points. When I give pointers to our new WHs, I looked for these plays to make sure that they're not marching downfield too quickly. I learned in basketball, and apply to football, "you have to know how a guy got on the ground."

[Forksref]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Flagging this type behavior as a live ball foul, eliminating the score, will likely bring the standard list of predictable howls from the sideline affected, but the lesson learned by the offender, and his team, will last 1000 times longer.

The Referee, or the Umpire or BJ (4 or 5 man) in the case of an interception or advanced defensive fumble recovery, should remain behind the flow just to guard against this type situation.

As an older R, I find myself more and more remaining behind the flow. The excuse of anticipating a fumble return is a good one. Guard the goal line, the most important line on the field.

Seriously, though, whenever I have flagged this, I have heard 10 times more howls directed at the player than at any of the officials. The word "stupid" is usually the most common term heard.

I have given a "talking to" foul on simple pushes in the back that are far from the runner and don't bother the defender, but I never ignore it. I have even told some players who are close to a hit but change their mind, "smart choice in not hitting that guy."

The lead official, usually the BJ or a wing will have the runner and the rest of us need to be vigilant. An eye on the clock is important in this situation too. We record the time of the score in case the CO starts the clock on an untouched free kick that goes OOB.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Flagging this type behavior as a live ball foul, eliminating the score, will likely bring the standard list of predictable howls from the sideline affected, but the lesson learned by the offender, and his team, will last 1000 times longer.

But at the expense of: requiring the official to see which occurred first, the foul or the TD 50 yards away; and of an act having the same nature (and no effect on the play) being penalized according to where (as well as when) it occurred; and of encouraging players to wait to take a cheap shot until after the whistle, when the opponent is even less likely to expect it.

The basic spot enforcement system was devised to produce a relatively easy to administer way to prevent the gaining of an unfair advantage, not to penalize ill behavior like this. The fact that it is unnecessary roughness means that it didn't have an effect on the play, so if there's any way you could see it as occurring after the ball became dead, that's how I would. DQ if necessary, but depriving team A of an otherwise legitimate gain, no.

Robert

[ajmc]

aIf it wasn't for this, "human nature" thing, you might have a point. Officials are not out there to regulate behavior, that's the job of the parent, coach and school. Our job is to insure that everyone abides by whatever rules govern the contest.

Obviously, we can only respond to what we see, and sometimes that might be 50 yards away. The responsibility for bad behavior rests entirely with the player, or coach, who decides when and how to exhibit it. Every player and every coach is RESPONSIBLE to know the rules, which means understanding the consequences of choosing to violate them. That decision is theirs, not ours. We're responsible for observing the behavior and knowing if, and what penalty, may be associated with it. We don't have any control over deciding when a player, or coach, chooses to do something stupid - that's on them, entirely.

The player who chooses to take a cheap shot, that has nothing to do with the outcome of a play, MUST understand that he is writing a check, that his teammates may have to pay a very expensive penalty for. The coach, of that player, MUST understand that the players action provides him with a teaching opportunity, that he had thusfar failed to recognize.

The penalized team did not lose an "otherwise legitimate gain", one of their teammates chose to discount and reject it. If you choose to minimize the penalty by allowing a live ball foul to be arbitrarily reduced to a dead ball enforcement, you are guilty of enabling that player to behave badly, which may only encourage him, or others, to repeat that behavior over and over again. Who benefits from that?

[JasonTX]

For what it's worth the 2008 CCA Officiating philosophies states, "For late hits away from the ball near the end of the play, when in question lean towards dead ball foul rather than live ball foul."