PSK or not? - NCAA

[DJ_NV]

NCAA: 4/8 @ B-48. During A1’s punt B1 clipped A2 at the B-41. A3 first touches the ball at the B-8 and B2 recovers the ball at the B-3 and runs to the A-4 where he fumbles the ball into the goal line pylon.

This one caused some debate, so of course I need to run by y'all before the next study session...

[With_Two_Flakes]

OK, I'm no rules expert, but I'll take a stab at it.

The fumble into the pylon gives a Touchback to A. Since B didn't end the down with the ball, it can't be PSK as that is one of the five requirements for PSK.
If A accept the penalty, the illegal touching dissapears.
Since it isn't PSK, the penalty is administered from the previous spot.
1/10 for A at B's 33.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by DJ_NV

NCAA: 4/8 @ B-48. During A1’s punt B1 clipped A2 at the B-41. A3 first touches the ball at the B-8 and B2 recovers the ball at the B-3 and runs to the A-4 where he fumbles the ball into the goal line pylon.

This one caused some debate, so of course I need to run by y'all before the next study session...

CANADIAN RULING:

Assuming that "during A1's punt" means that the ball is in the air...

This is blocking from the rear, and while the ball is in the air, it is 15 yards from the Point of Possession. The PP is the B-3 (Team B). The fumble by B doesn't give A the ball, so A will accept the foul and end up with: B 1D/10 @ B1½.

[JasonTX]

Originally Posted by With_Two_Flakes

OK, I'm no rules expert, but I'll take a stab at it.

The fumble into the pylon gives a Touchback to A. Since B didn't end the down with the ball, it can't be PSK as that is one of the five requirements for PSK.
If A accept the penalty, the illegal touching dissapears.
Since it isn't PSK, the penalty is administered from the previous spot.
1/10 for A at B's 33.

Actually the requirement is that Team A does not have possession of the ball when the down ends.(10-2-2-e exception 3 e). A team is "in possession" when one of its players is "in possession" (2-2-5-b) In this play no team A player was in possession when the down ended.

My ruling is that this is PSK and it will be B's ball 1st and 10 at the B 1.5

[DJ_NV]

I think it should be PSK but I can't prove it. Although I didn't get too far into the debate about it the other night, my colleague kept saying it can't be PSK because B doesn't have possession when the down ends. The actual wording is not the B has to have possession but rather that A does not have possession. But remember that "possession" (and that's the only word the rule uses) can mean player possession (which A does not have) and team possession (which they do).

So the question then becomes, does the illegal touching wipe off the 'validity' of the touchback? If it does, then we have PSK. If it doesn't, then we don't. I tend to believe that how can A be awarded 'possession' after an illegal touch? But until I have an AR or similar to go by, I can't argue with the letter of the law in Rule 10.

Thoughts?

[With_Two_Flakes]

Originally Posted by JasonTX

Actually the requirement is that Team A does not have possession of the ball when the down ends.(10-2-2-e exception 3 e). A team is "in possession" when one of its players is "in possession" (2-2-5-b) In this play no team A player was in possession when the down ended.

Yeah, I did look that up the exact wording of 10-2-2-e, I was just lazy in how I paraphrased it in my post. I see where you are coming from regarding 2-2-5-b and its last phrase.

One argument could be that while that ball is loose inbounds that 2-2-5-b covers the situation, but once the ball is Out of Bounds, then 7-2-4-b covers it "... If a fumble is out of bounds behind a goal line, it is a touchback or safety". But then when you delve into Rule 8 about Touchback's it is interesting to note that Rule 8-6-2 use the words "belongs to", rather than "possession". So perhaps there is no change of Team possession in terms of 2-2-5 till the ball is legally snapped after the Touchback.

I've thought about this some more - trying to imagine myself on the field with 10 seconds to figure it out, rather than sat at my desk going through the Rule Book for 10 minutes....
I suspect that on the field, I'd enforce PSK as it would feel the most equitable since A did punt the ball away and you never like to give the ball back cheaply.

With my luck, this is going to happen in my next game (in 3 days time) so let's get an definitive answer quick!

[JasonTX]

Originally Posted by DJ_NV

I think it should be PSK but I can't prove it. Although I didn't get too far into the debate about it the other night, my colleague kept saying it can't be PSK because B doesn't have possession when the down ends. The actual wording is not the B has to have possession but rather that A does not have possession. But remember that "possession" (and that's the only word the rule uses) can mean player possession (which A does not have) and team possession (which they do).

So the question then becomes, does the illegal touching wipe off the 'validity' of the touchback? If it does, then we have PSK. If it doesn't, then we don't. I tend to believe that how can A be awarded 'possession' after an illegal touch? But until I have an AR or similar to go by, I can't argue with the letter of the law in Rule 10.

Thoughts?

Team A is not in team possession either. The definition:

In Possession
ARTICLE 5. “In possession’’ is an abbreviation meaning the holding or
controlling of a live ball or a ball to be free-kicked.
a. A player “gains possession’’ when he is firmly holding or controlling the
ball while contacting the ground inbounds.

b. A team is “in possession’’ when one of its players is “in possession’’
or attempting a punt, drop kick or place kick; while a forward pass
thrown by one of its players is in flight; or one of its players was last in
possession during a loose ball.


By these definitions Team A does not meet any of these requirements. Team B was the team that fumbled it and that meets the requirements of "b".

To show support for PSK we can look at a similar play.

Team A 2nd and 10 from the B-30 throws a legal forward pass that is caught by A80 on the B-4 where he fumbles and the ball goes forward and out of the back of the end zone. During the pass, B90 roughed the passer. Ruling: A's ball 1st and Goal at the B-2.

Had there been a change of possesion then the enforcement would have been from the previous spot. Since there was not a change of possession in this play then the same can be said for the original play regarding PSK.

[ML99]

Originally Posted by JasonTX

Actually the requirement is that Team A does not have possession of the ball when the down ends.(10-2-2-e exception 3 e). A team is "in possession" when one of its players is "in possession" (2-2-5-b) In this play no team A player was in possession when the down ended.

My ruling is that this is PSK and it will be B's ball 1st and 10 at the B 1.5

I would exactly go with JasonTX's decision.

10-2-2e Exception 3e says: "When Team A does not have possession of the ball when the down ends."

[ODJ]

Here's a dumb question:

If A accepts the penalty wouldn't B retain the ball?

Decline the penalty and get the ball back.

[JasonTX]

Originally Posted by ODJ

Here's a dumb question:

If A accepts the penalty wouldn't B retain the ball?

Decline the penalty and get the ball back.

If A declines the penalty then B will invoke the illegal touching and take the ball where team A illegally touched the ball at the B-8.

[ODJ]

Got it. Thanks.