Bag a fumble behind LOS

[With_Two_Flakes]

Let's be honest, a likely scenario (especially with newer guys) is that no matter where it occured, they forget to bag it. I want it to become instinctive for my crew to get a bag onto the spot for any fumble they see.

So I say bag 'em all. The last thing I would want a member of my crew to be doing was thinking "Mmm, where did that occur? Do I need to bag it or not?". Bag it and continue officiating.

At the end of the day you'll end the down by picking up your bag and putting it back in your belt. It won't kill you to pick it up one more time than was strictly necessary, whereas it might leave you with egg on your face if you miss bagging a fumble that needed it.

[Warrenkicker]

Originally Posted by With_Two_Flakes

So I say bag 'em all. The last thing I would want a member of my crew to be doing was thinking "Mmm, where did that occur? Do I need to bag it or not?". Bag it and continue officiating.

Exactly!!!!!

[wisref2]

Here's what I teach at our local association:
Beanbag all fumbles, including those behind the line.
There is no need to beanbag behind the line, but:
It tells everyone, including your crew, that there is a fumble.
It keeps you in the habit of beanbagging fumbles so you don't have to think about it.
It prevents you from having to decide if it is behind the line.

[MJT]

Originally Posted by wisref2

Here's what I teach at our local association:
Beanbag all fumbles, including those behind the line.
There is no need to beanbag behind the line, but:
It tells everyone, including your crew, that there is a fumble.
It keeps you in the habit of beanbagging fumbles so you don't have to think about it.
It prevents you from having to decide if it is behind the line.

This what we do as well and why.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: For Fed, there's no rule-based reason for bagging the spot of a fumble or backward pass behind the neutral. By that I mean there will never be a need to know on what yardline the fumble/pass occurred. Many do drop the bag to alert their crewmates that the ball is loose.

As Texas Aggie mentioned, it is required in NCAA rules because of the potential for a forward fumble out-of-bounds and the need to know where that fumble occurred.

[BoBo]

Play situation.

2nd and 10 from A's40

QB A12 drops back to pass and is hit and fumbles on A's (his own) 30. He fumbles when hit and the ball is bouncing towards A's goalline.

A22 sees B55 is about to recover the football at A's 25.

A22 tackles B55 at A's 25 so A33 can recover the football.

A33 recovers the football A's 22.

So you are all telling me that illegal use of hands penalty on A22 will be inforced from the previous spot A's 40 if accepted.

I know in this situation it will probably be declined because of the loss of yardage but just go with me here for the sake of the arguement.

That to me would seem pretty advantageous for team A to do that rather than risk the loss of the football.

Am I missing something here???

[DJ_NV]

Bobo,

A couple things here....

First, the tackle by A22 on B55 is technically holding, not illegal use of hands.

Second, even though no player is in possession of the ball, fundamentally we know that Team A is still in "team possession" of the ball and because they were the ones to put it in play originally and there has not be a change of possession, by definition we know that they are still considered the "offense".

So we have a fumble behind the NZ, so we have loose-ball play by definition. We also know that the Basic Spot for loose-ball play is the Previous Spot.

But the key here is that we have a foul (holding) by the offense behind the Basic Spot. The All-But-One principle tells us that these fouls are penalized from the spot of the foul.

So we can back Team A up 10 yards from the spot of the foul (A-25) and have 2nd down again so we would have A 2/35 @ A-15. Clock on RFP

or more likely, Team B can decline the penalty and have 3rd down, A 3/28 @ A-22. Clock on RFP.

[ljdave]

Originally Posted by STEVED21

I'm enforcing from the 40 as this is a loose ball play and the basic spot is the previous spot. Beanbag isn't needed.

You should enforce from the 39 because the foul happened behind the basic spot (All-But-One).

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by ljdave

Is there a need to throw a bean bag when the fumble spot is behind the LOS?

CANADIAN MECHANIC:

We bag all fumbles.

[Illini_Ref]

Originally Posted by ljdave

You should enforce from the 39 because the foul happened behind the basic spot (All-But-One).

Previous spot foul due to the inclusion of a fumble on the play, making it a loose-ball play. Had there not been a fumble, enforce from the 39, or the end of the run.

The "all but one" principle applies to fouls by the OFFENSE behind the basic spot. In the cited play, the foul was on the defense.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by BoBo

2nd and 10 from A's40

QB A12 drops back to pass and is hit and fumbles on A's (his own) 30. He fumbles when hit and the ball is bouncing towards A's goalline.

A22 sees B55 is about to recover the football at A's 25.

A22 tackles B55 at A's 25 so A33 can recover the football.

A33 recovers the football A's 22.

CANADIAN RULING:

Loose Ball Interference. Huge no-no up here.

B 1D/10 @ A-25.

[swkansasref33]

I have a question... what does the beanbag tell you other than you have a fumble?

[MJT]

1. The spot of first touching.
2. The spot of the momentum exception.
3. The end of the kick on a scrimmage kick. (for penalty enforcement)
4. Where the QB threw a ball from if close to LOS and not sure if he was past the LOS or not. (some will drop bag-look-then flag, while some will drop flag-look-pick up flag if not past LOS)
5. To mark the OB spot if you have to leave that spot to help protect players that go OOB's and into a team bench area.

Probably more, but that's all I got out of my head at this time.

[swkansasref33]

Thanks... do you think you could help me out with the topic i posted on linesman duties?

[Suudy]

I just got the notes from our evaluator for last Fri's game. Like other have said, I'm in the habit of bean bagging all fumbles. Of course our evaluator noted that I bagged a fumble behind the LOS, then noted after the game that it isn't necessary.

His argument is that the state evaluators would frown on this and that we would be graded down for state assignments. Of course I understood this, and he noted that in practice, there is no problem bagging fumbles behind the LOS. But those state evaulators....

This makes me wonder if the state evaluators were ever officials.