Balk (Dead ball/live ball)

[Southside]

First, I have searched this topic and read several threads on it, and I still have lingering uncertainty.

The basic question is whether a balk can occur with a dead ball. I am aware of the consensus in previous threads that it cannot. Essentially the line of reasoning there, which seems fairly plausible to me, is that the ball can't be live until the pitcher toes the rubber with the ball, thus no balk if the pitcher hasn't done so since the last time the ball became dead. However, one of the ways to balk (though I have never hear of it being called) is to "unnecessarily delay the game." It seems that this is likely to occur in a dead ball situation.

The other, and more solid, reason I am somewhat unsatisfied with the explanation that a balk can't occur until the ball has become live due to a pitcher getting on the rubber with the ball is that there are some other situations in which runners could be awarded bases due to things that occur during dead ball. For example, under rule 8.03, a "ball" is to be called if the pitcher delays more than 20 seconds (with the bases empty). This could be ball 4, which suggests that 5.02 does not universally prevent advance by base runners due to action during a dead ball. Also 8.02a, which dictates a "ball" be called for several illegal actions, seems to be applicable to dead ball situations.

Essentially, rule 8.02 seems to potentially contradict the part of 5.02 that bars runs from being scored during a dead ball unless the reason occurred during a live ball. So my question is if rule 8.02 can lead to entirely dead-ball advances by runners, then is there a reason that rule 8.05 (balk) applies only to live-ball situations?

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by Southside

First, I have searched this topic and read several threads on it, and I still have lingering uncertainty.

The basic question is whether a balk can occur with a dead ball. I am aware of the consensus in previous threads that it cannot. Essentially the line of reasoning there, which seems fairly plausible to me, is that the ball can't be live until the pitcher toes the rubber with the ball, thus no balk if the pitcher hasn't done so since the last time the ball became dead. However, one of the ways to balk (though I have never hear of it being called) is to "unnecessarily delay the game." It seems that this is likely to occur in a dead ball situation.

The other, and more solid, reason I am somewhat unsatisfied with the explanation that a balk can't occur until the ball has become live due to a pitcher getting on the rubber with the ball is that there are some other situations in which runners could be awarded bases due to things that occur during dead ball. For example, under rule 8.03, a "ball" is to be called if the pitcher delays more than 20 seconds (with the bases empty). This could be ball 4, which suggests that 5.02 does not universally prevent advance by base runners due to action during a dead ball. Also 8.02a, which dictates a "ball" be called for several illegal actions, seems to be applicable to dead ball situations.

Essentially, rule 8.02 seems to potentially contradict the part of 5.02 that bars runs from being scored during a dead ball unless the reason occurred during a live ball. So my question is if rule 8.02 can lead to entirely dead-ball advances by runners, then is there a reason that rule 8.05 (balk) applies only to live-ball situations?

You have all you need right above. Rules of Baseball are nebulous, if you are looking for concrete interps here, you will get on this Forum, one of three responses.

1) The such and such interp unequivacably says..
2) No it doesn't it allows for...
3) Hell if I know and no one else does for sure (unless mandated)

I suggest you take #3, those that make a science out of basebal rules interps are very religious. Think New Testament, even Christ and His Apostles couldn't get on the same page.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by Southside

First, I have searched this topic and read several threads on it, and I still have lingering uncertainty.

The basic question is whether a balk can occur with a dead ball. I am aware of the consensus in previous threads that it cannot. Essentially the line of reasoning there, which seems fairly plausible to me, is that the ball can't be live until the pitcher toes the rubber with the ball, thus no balk if the pitcher hasn't done so since the last time the ball became dead. However, one of the ways to balk (though I have never hear of it being called) is to "unnecessarily delay the game." It seems that this is likely to occur in a dead ball situation.

The other, and more solid, reason I am somewhat unsatisfied with the explanation that a balk can't occur until the ball has become live due to a pitcher getting on the rubber with the ball is that there are some other situations in which runners could be awarded bases due to things that occur during dead ball. For example, under rule 8.03, a "ball" is to be called if the pitcher delays more than 20 seconds (with the bases empty). This could be ball 4, which suggests that 5.02 does not universally prevent advance by base runners due to action during a dead ball. Also 8.02a, which dictates a "ball" be called for several illegal actions, seems to be applicable to dead ball situations.

Essentially, rule 8.02 seems to potentially contradict the part of 5.02 that bars runs from being scored during a dead ball unless the reason occurred during a live ball. So my question is if rule 8.02 can lead to entirely dead-ball advances by runners, then is there a reason that rule 8.05 (balk) applies only to live-ball situations?

Uhmmm, nothing under OBR 8.02 can occur if the ball is dead! Therefore, nothing contradicts OBR 5.02!

Regards

[Tim C]

I am sure that MLB, NCAA, and all games played under OBR are just waiting for your opinion.

WHY do some people make it so hard?

A balk cannot occur during a dead ball.

Sheese,

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Tim C

I am sure that MLB, NCAA, and all games played under OBR are just waiting for your opinion.

WHY do some people make it so hard?

A balk cannot occur during a dead ball.

Sheese,

But Tim, other things can happen involving the pitcher during a dead ball, so why not a balk? I just don't get it.

Take this play -- the coach goes out to visit the pitcher (I forget is this a dead ball or a live ball? Well, let's assume it's a dead ball). The pitcher stupidly stands on the rubber during this visit. The coach decides to make a pitching change. As the pitcher hands the ball to the coach, he drops it. This is a balk, right?

So, my question is, in the play above, if the COACH is standing on the rubber and takes the ball from the pitcher and then drops it, is this also a balk? It must be because as soon as the coach takes the ball, he becomes the new pitcher and is still the pitcher until the releiver gets in from the bullpen and then takes the ball.

sheesh, indeed.

[SanDiegoSteve]

DISCLAIMER

Just in case someone new to this forum (and the baseball world in general) is reading this stuff, the above post by Bob Jenkins was made tongue-in-cheek, and was in no way meant to be serious. Please do not follow any of this advice, as it is a joke.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

DISCLAIMER

Just in case someone new to this forum (and the baseball world in general) is reading this stuff, the above post by Bob Jenkins was made tongue-in-cheek, and was in no way meant to be serious. Please do not follow any of this advice, as it is a joke.

Not quite true, Steve. The last sentence of my post ("Sheesh, indeed.") was serious.

[LakeErieUmp]

And if there are new readers to this forum, let's not confuse them Bob - after the coach takes the ball while standing on the rubber and becomes the new pitcher, the relief pitcher cannot replace him until the coach has faced at least one batter!

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

Bases loaded. Defense calls time. You grant it. Infield including catcher gather up around the pitcher. Pitcher shuttles ball to F5 during the pow wow. As everyone goes back towards their positions, the catcher is set, the batter is set and the pitcher is straddling the rubber in the set position. You are waiting to put the ball in play when the pitcher toes the rubber. About this time, F5 tags R3 off the base with the ball. You call balk and award all runners one base.

You now have a balk during a dead ball situation.

No you don't because you cannot balk during a dead ball. You have nothing. You tell F5 to get the ball back to the pitcher so we can get the game going and you probably eject the coach when he can't deal with not getting an out when the ball isn't in play.

[Forest Ump]

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

Bases loaded. Defense calls time. You grant it. Infield including catcher gather up around the pitcher. Pitcher shuttles ball to F5 during the pow wow. As everyone goes back towards their positions, the catcher is set, the batter is set and the pitcher is straddling the rubber in the set position. You are waiting to put the ball in play when the pitcher toes the rubber. About this time, F5 tags R3 off the base with the ball. You call balk and award all runners one base.

You now have a balk during a dead ball situation.

You got nothing. Ball is dead (rip).

[LakeErieUmp]

You have an umpire (could this be YOU?) who didn't check to see if the pitcher had the ball before giving the "play" signal.

[cbfoulds]

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

Bases loaded. Defense calls time. You grant it. Infield including catcher gather up around the pitcher. Pitcher shuttles ball to F5 during the pow wow. As everyone goes back towards their positions, the catcher is set, the batter is set and the pitcher is straddling the rubber in the set position. You are waiting to put the ball in play when the pitcher toes the rubber. About this time, F5 tags R3 off the base with the ball. You call balk and award all runners one base.

You now have a balk during a dead ball situation.

No, you have publicly proved that you are a moron who has no business being on a baseball field as an umpire.

Nothing any player does with or without the ball during a dead-ball sitch can cause runners to advance or be put out [OK, well, excepting that bizare FED creature, the dead-ball appeal] while the ball remains dead, and nothing the pitcher does can cause a balk during a dead ball.

If this same scenario happens, except the tag of the runner happens AFTER the ball is made live, it is nothing more than a "do-over" because the umpire messed up by making the ball live when F1 didn't have it. If the foregoing is true [and it is], then only a complete ignoramus could call a balk in the same sitch while the ball is still dead.

[Tim C]

"Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

Bases loaded. Defense calls time. You grant it. Infield including catcher gather up around the pitcher. Pitcher shuttles ball to F5 during the pow wow. As everyone goes back towards their positions, the catcher is set, the batter is set and the pitcher is straddling the rubber in the set position. You are waiting to put the ball in play when the pitcher toes the rubber. About this time, F5 tags R3 off the base with the ball. You call balk and award all runners one base.

"You now have a balk during a dead ball situation."

This is the kind of crap I have come to expect from Paul, err steve, err fitUmp.

Please folks understand the the ball cannot be put into play without the pitcher HAVING THE BALL AND BEING IN CONTACT WITH THE P"ITCHER'S PLATE.

Steve just erred in the big time.


It is NOT a balk under ANY rule code.

Here is an e-mail from Jim Paronto the NCAA Rule Book Editor.

-----------------------------------------------------

Tim

In response to your question concerning Dave's comment to a group in Texas:

Please continue to instruct your umpires in this manner as far as the NCAA rules are concerned.

"When the umpire realizes his mistake of putting the ball into play improperly, he should rectify his mistake because we all know that a ball cannot be made live until all the proper elements are in place; the pitcher, with the ball, gets on the rubber, the batter assumes his normal position in the batter's box and the catcher is within the lines of the catcher's box."

Neither team should ever be put in a position of disadvantage because of an umpire's mistake. Whenever possible, the umpire must take whatever steps needed to correct his error. It will take some explanation to both managers and in your words, " a do over" would be the appropriate way to handle the error.

I hope this clarifies this situation for you.

Jim Paronto
Secretary Editor

[RPatrino]

Steven Tyler, what have you been smokin, dude?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

Bases loaded. Defense calls time. You grant it. Infield including catcher gather up around the pitcher. Pitcher shuttles ball to F5 during the pow wow. As everyone goes back towards their positions, the catcher is set, the batter is set and the pitcher is straddling the rubber in the set position. You are waiting to put the ball in play when the pitcher toes the rubber. About this time, F5 tags R3 off the base with the ball. You call balk and award all runners one base.

You now have a balk during a dead ball situation.

A few posts ago, SDS entered the following about a post I made:

DISCLAIMER

Just in case someone new to this forum (and the baseball world in general) is reading this stuff, the above post by Bob Jenkins was made tongue-in-cheek, and was in no way meant to be serious. Please do not follow any of this advice, as it is a joke.

At least the last sentence applies to Steven's post as well.