2 fouls on scrimmage kick play

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

CANADIAN RULING:

I will assume that B50's hold was while the ball was airborne. In the Canadian game, we need to know where the Point of Possession (PP) was. This is the worse of Point of First Touch (PFT) or Point of Actual Possession (PAP) of the team that legally gains possession of the ball.

It was a lot simpler before they made all those exceptions to "offside pass"; now they have to reintroduce particular provisions thru the back door like this. Used to be if what's now the PAP was ahead of PFT (these are new terms to me), that'd be an offside pass, and in this case you'd have a foul by a team before their possession not from scrimmage, followed by an offside pass by that team. (And then a dead ball foul.)

Robert

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Used to be if what's now the PAP was ahead of PFT (these are new terms to me), that'd be an offside pass

So you're telling me that on a punt return, a muffed catch attempt is an offside pass?

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

and in this case you'd have a foul by a team before their possession not from scrimmage, followed by an offside pass by that team. (And then a dead ball foul.)

This is consistent with what you said above, but I am not sure that I like it. Did you use to flag offside passes (subject to penalty)?

[Bob M.]

REPLY: Once we know where the kick ends (a critical piece of the puzzle), NCAA and Federation rulings will be identical.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

So you're telling me that on a punt return, a muffed catch attempt is an offside pass?

Sorry, wasn't thinking. If it didn't go to another player, it wasn't considered a pass and wasn't penalized IIRC. That went long before the era I had in mind. But until some time in the 1970s, if you muffed it forward and another player recovered it, it was an offside loose ball and penalized as offside pass regardless of whether the player recovering it was onside.

So now the PFT-PAP business covers cases where the player accidentally knocks it to himself?

Robert