Scrimmage kick play

[chayos]

K1 scrimmage kicks from the K 25 yard line. The kick is short and on a dead run to receive the kick R10 muffs it at the K37 yard line. In an attempt to fight for the ball, R45 grabs and twists K32 by the face mask. The ball rolls to the K23 yard line where it is recovered by R45.

Ruling:

[Warrenkicker]

Well this appears to meet the given PSK standards. Foul by R after ball crosses ENZ and R ends play with ball. No fouls by K before R took possession. R keeps the ball and 15 yard penalty for personal foul facemask will be marked of from K32 so 1-10 for R at K47.

[Forksref]

I believe that the spot for the beginning of the next play should be R38. Reason: for the new PSK ruling, the rule states that the foul must occur prior to the end of the kick. By definition,"A kick ends when a player gains possession or when the ball becomes dead while not in player possession." (2-23-art. 2) Thus, the muff does not end the kick. The kick in this play ended at R23 when R45 recovered it. The enforcement spot is the end of the kick (R23 yard line) so the succeeding play begins at R38.

[sm_bbcoach]

Originally posted by Forksref
I believe that the spot for the beginning of the next play should be R38. Reason: for the new PSK ruling, the rule states that the foul must occur prior to the end of the kick. By definition,"A kick ends when a player gains possession or when the ball becomes dead while not in player possession." (2-23-art. 2) Thus, the muff does not end the kick. The kick in this play ended at R23 when R45 recovered it. The enforcement spot is the end of the kick (R23 yard line) so the succeeding play begins at R38.

Even though the kick ended aty the 23, the foul was behind the enforcement spot. You then mark off the penality from there. It is the same as a foul behind the LOS.
At least this is the way I see it.

[cmathews]

from another topic...doesn't the kick have to end beyond the enz???? 2-16-g to be considered for PSK enforcement

[Edited by cmathews on Aug 21st, 2003 at 11:53 AM]

[Forksref]

sm bbcoach is correct! I am WRONG! The foul was by R behind the basic spot so the all but one applies. Thanks for waking me up!

[cmathews]

guys I don't think it is PSK as my other post mentioned. Ond of the stipulations is that the kick ends beyond the ENZ, this kick does not....so in my mind 15 yards from the previous spot and either a first down for K or replay the down... 2-16g

[chayos]

The kick must end beyond the NZ for the foul to be enforced as PSK. 2-16-2(g)

Great discussion folks

[BktBallRef]

Loose ball foul, enforcement from the previous spot. K's ball at the K40. It will either be 1st and 10 for K or 4th and ???.

[PSU213]

Originally posted by chayos
The kick must end beyond the NZ for the foul to be enforced as PSK. 2-16-2(g)

Great discussion folks

OK, I may be missing something obvious, but this has me a little confused. The definition of post scrimmage kick foul in 2-16-2g includes "...scrimmage kick that ends beyond the neutral zone..." However, in 10-4-3 it states "The basic spot is the spot where the kick ends when R fouls occur:" and then lists criteria a-e. Nowhere in that list does it say the kick must end beyond the NZ, therefore it seems that this rule implies that the end of the kick should be used as the basic spot even if the kick ends behind the NZ. Please, clear things up for me if you can.

[cmathews]

That the spot of the kick when it is behind the NZ is not mentioned because it does not meet the criteria for PSK set forth in 2-16 g. Therefore there is no PSK involved here, or in any kick that ends in or on K side of the ENZ

[Theisey]

The kick need only end beyond the NZ. It's the foul that must occur beyond the ENZ.

[sm_bbcoach]

Originally posted by cmathews
guys I don't think it is PSK as my other post mentioned. Ond of the stipulations is that the kick ends beyond the ENZ, this kick does not....so in my mind 15 yards from the previous spot and either a first down for K or replay the down... 2-16g

Did I mess up this play. Got so tied up on PSK, forgot the kick had to end pass the NZ. ARGH............. So, this is now a loose ball foul, 15 from the K 25, ball now at 40. 1/10 if enough to get to line to gain; else, 4/??.

K gets ball back. This is the reason PSK was derived. BUT NF has screwed it up by placing restrictions that does give the ball back...

NOW, if R recovers the ball at the 26, it is whole new ball of wax.... R keeps the ball, but back 15 yds. So, B ball 1/10 from the 47 (i am working form memory). The spot of enforcement is behind the PSk spot, all but one principle rules here. Fouls behind the spot are taken form there.

There, now...clear as mud!!!!!
Thanks for straightening me out!

[Edited by sm_bbcoach on Aug 21st, 2003 at 01:02 PM]

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by sm_bbcoach
NOW, if R recovers the ball at the 26, it is whole new ball of wax.... R keeps the ball, but back 15 yds. So, B ball 1/10 from the 47 (i am working form memory). The spot of enforcement is behind the PSk spot, all but one principle rules here.

Not necessarily. We were never told where the foul occurs.

[sm_bbcoach]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Not necessarily. We were never told where the foul occurs.

Guess I was thinking the foul had occured at the spot of recovery.