2 fouls on scrimmage kick play

[Forksref]

A has the ball 4th and 8 at the A's 40. A kicks the ball. During the kick, B50 holds at the B's 40. After the ball is dead, B35 has a late hit at the B's 30 yd line.

[TXMike]

Originally Posted by Forksref

A has the ball 4th and 8 at the A's 40. A kicks the ball. During the kick, B50 holds at the B's 40. After the ball is dead, B35 has a late hit at the B's 30 yd line.

NCAA Need to know what the result of the play is and where the kick ends. If it ends with B in possession then the 1st foul is enforced (PSK enforcement) and the dead ball foul is enforced from wherever the first penalty enforcement leaves the ball.

[MJT]

Originally Posted by Forksref

A has the ball 4th and 8 at the A's 40. A kicks the ball. During the kick, B50 holds at the B's 40. After the ball is dead, B35 has a late hit at the B's 30 yd line.

NF, if you are saying the late hit is on the ball carrier, thus telling us the ball became dead B's 30, this is what you have. PSK for the hold, enforce from the 30 (EOR) and then enforce the the late hit (1/2 distance). End result is B's ball 1-10 from their 20 yard line.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Forksref

A has the ball 4th and 8 at the A's 40. A kicks the ball. During the kick, B50 holds at the B's 40. After the ball is dead, B35 has a late hit at the B's 30 yd line.

CANADIAN RULING:

I will assume that B50's hold was while the ball was airborne. In the Canadian game, we need to know where the Point of Possession (PP) was. This is the worse of Point of First Touch (PFT) or Point of Actual Possession (PAP) of the team that legally gains possession of the ball. The hold (10y) will be applied from this spot.

The dead ball UR (15y) can be applied from the same spot as the hold (hold accepted) or Point Ball Dead (PBD, hold declined).

In the OP, the PP and PBD were not given. Both of these spots are needed to accurately give a result.

[Theisey]

MJT has the correct enforcement for both codes.
To be technically correct, there is only ONE foul on the scrimmage kick play.
That being the hold by team-B.
Your second foul, is after the scrimmage kick play is over, i.e. during the dead ball period.
Net, you have a live ball foul followed by a dead ball foul by the same team.

The penalties are enforced seperately and in the order they occurred

[Kirby]

Originally Posted by MJT

NF, if you are saying the late hit is on the ball carrier, thus telling us the ball became dead B's 30, this is what you have. PSK for the hold, enforce from the 30 (EOR) and then enforce the the late hit (1/2 distance). End result is B's ball 1-10 from their 20 yard line.

MJT--

Since the hold was during the kick, don't we still need to know where the kick ended so that we can determine to either enforce from the end of kick or spot of the foul? Or, are you assuming the kick ended at the same spot the ball became dead?

Not enough info in the original play situation unless I am missing something.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

CANADIAN RULING:

I will assume that B50's hold was while the ball was airborne. In the Canadian game, we need to know where the Point of Possession (PP) was. This is the worse of Point of First Touch (PFT) or Point of Actual Possession (PAP) of the team that legally gains possession of the ball.

It was a lot simpler before they made all those exceptions to "offside pass"; now they have to reintroduce particular provisions thru the back door like this. Used to be if what's now the PAP was ahead of PFT (these are new terms to me), that'd be an offside pass, and in this case you'd have a foul by a team before their possession not from scrimmage, followed by an offside pass by that team. (And then a dead ball foul.)

Robert

[Ed Maeder]

Originally Posted by MJT

NF, if you are saying the late hit is on the ball carrier, thus telling us the ball became dead B's 30, this is what you have. PSK for the hold, enforce from the 30 (EOR) and then enforce the the late hit (1/2 distance). End result is B's ball 1-10 from their 20 yard line.

The way I read PSK is the basic spot is the spot where the kick ends when R commits a PSK foul, unless R fouls behind the PSK spot, then it is a spot foul. So in this situation we need to know where the kick ended. With the information we have been given we don't. I would penalize for the PSK hold from the spot where the kick ended, then penalize for the personal foul from there. Don't agree with MJT ruling at all.

[MJT]

Originally Posted by Kirby

MJT--

Since the hold was during the kick, don't we still need to know where the kick ended so that we can determine to either enforce from the end of kick or spot of the foul? Or, are you assuming the kick ended at the same spot the ball became dead?

Not enough info in the original play situation unless I am missing something.

Ed and Kirby, I tried to say that, but it wasn't very clear. The EOK would have made things easier to determine the proper enforcement.

[Ed Maeder]

I guess what we are saying is that Forksref needs to chime back in with more information for an educated answer. Where did the kick end, and maybe use K and R to reference which team you are referring to. Without that information we are just guessing.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Used to be if what's now the PAP was ahead of PFT (these are new terms to me), that'd be an offside pass

So you're telling me that on a punt return, a muffed catch attempt is an offside pass?

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

and in this case you'd have a foul by a team before their possession not from scrimmage, followed by an offside pass by that team. (And then a dead ball foul.)

This is consistent with what you said above, but I am not sure that I like it. Did you use to flag offside passes (subject to penalty)?

[Bob M.]

REPLY: Once we know where the kick ends (a critical piece of the puzzle), NCAA and Federation rulings will be identical.

[Mike L]

Perhaps the intent of this question can be summed up by

1) are both fouls by B enforced?
2) does B get to keep the ball?

rather than being concerned with exactly where the ball will end up.

the answer to both is "yes".

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

So you're telling me that on a punt return, a muffed catch attempt is an offside pass?

Sorry, wasn't thinking. If it didn't go to another player, it wasn't considered a pass and wasn't penalized IIRC. That went long before the era I had in mind. But until some time in the 1970s, if you muffed it forward and another player recovered it, it was an offside loose ball and penalized as offside pass regardless of whether the player recovering it was onside.

So now the PFT-PAP business covers cases where the player accidentally knocks it to himself?

Robert