Is it a safety if B declines penalty?

[Indy_Stu]

T or F

Q - If A1 is in his own end zone when he intentionally grounds a forward pass, it is a safety even if B declines the penalty.

I say B has the right to decline (hold those replies, I know that this will seldom if ever happen) and it is not automatically a safety, therefore F.

My association says 8-5-2c makes this one T. If intentional grounding is called and accepted, enforcement is from the end of the run. I agree this would be a safety in the situation above. If I.G. is called, but B declines, it seems to follow that all you have is an incomplete (forward) pass, not an illegal forward pass, so 8-5-2c does not apply. In this case the ball would go back to the L.O.S. for whatever down would come next.

Final thought in my own defense. Same situation as above, but lets say (unlikely, but hey . . .) it is 4th & 10 from A5; A leading B by 3 points; pass is whistled incomplete with 2 seconds remaining in the game. Can B decline penalty to go for tie/win?

[waltjp]

Intentional grounding from your own end zone is a safety if the penalty is accepted. If the penalty is declined the ball will be spotted at the end of the run, which is in the end zone. Safety.

[BktBallRef]

Makes no difference whether the foul is declined or not, the result is a safety.

An IFP is a running play, not a incomplete pass play. Since the run ended in the end zone where the ball became dead, the result of the play is a safety.

You got the question wrong.

[kdf5]

Originally Posted by waltjp

Intentional grounding from your own end zone is a safety if the penalty is accepted. If the penalty is declined the ball will be spotted at the end of the run, which is in the end zone. Safety.

Exactly. An illegal pass is treated as a run. I learned this one the hard way years ago. Knowing the definitions of loose ball plays and running plays makes this one easier.

[Indy_Stu]

All -

Thanks for the posts. I agree an IFP is a penalty, for that matter any infraction that is accepted results in a penalty. Maybe a different way to state the question is, if a penalty is declined was there a penalty? B declined in the given situation. I don't make up these questions and situations, NFHS does. We just have to answer them

Modified situation: 1st and 10 from A20. QB A12 takes snap, rolls to right, and intentionally grounds at A15. B declines the penalty (I know, they wouldn't, but indulge the question). What is the down and distance? Where is ball put in play? Does the clock start at ready or snap?

My answer: B declined penalty, result of the play was an incomplete pass. Ball is still live until it is ruled incomplete, doesn't become dead just because it was thrown or intentionally thrown to avoid loss. Ball is returned to the 20 for 2nd and 10. Clock starts at the snap.

Another situation: QB A12 is scrambling in his own end zone. While trying to elude B players he facemasks B player while in the endzone to ward off defender. He escapes, throws a pass that is intercepted by B, and run back to the A5 yard line. Does B have any choices? Seems like a similar situation: live ball foul by A in its own end zone. Is this automatically a safety for B? Or do they have choices.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by Indy_Stu

Another situation: QB A12 is scrambling in his own end zone. While trying to elude B players he facemasks B player while in the endzone to ward off defender. He escapes, throws a pass that is intercepted by B, and run back to the A5 yard line. Does B have any choices? Seems like a similar situation: live ball foul by A in its own end zone. Is this automatically a safety for B? Or do they have choices.

B can either:

1. Accept the facemask penalty resulting in a safety.

2. Decline the penalty and take possession at A5.

[whitehat52]

Indy Stu

Your questions all hinge on the definitions of what is a loose ball play and what is a running play. An illegal forward pass is a running play by RULE. If B accepts the penalty in the end zone it will be enforced from the spot of the foul hence a safety. However if they decline the foul for intentional grounding, the end of the run is still in the end zone, therefore the play also results in a safety.

The NFHS would have to change the definition of a loose ball play, for your situation not to be a safety.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by Indy_Stu

Modified situation: 1st and 10 from A20. QB A12 takes snap, rolls to right, and intentionally grounds at A15. B declines the penalty (I know, they wouldn't, but indulge the question). What is the down and distance? Where is ball put in play? Does the clock start at ready or snap?

My answer: B declined penalty, result of the play was an incomplete pass. Ball is still live until it is ruled incomplete, doesn't become dead just because it was thrown or intentionally thrown to avoid loss. Ball is returned to the 20 for 2nd and 10. Clock starts at the snap.

This is where you're missing the point. As WH52 and others have said, an illegal forward pass is considered a running play and the run ends at the spot where the illegal pass was thrown. In your example the pass was thrown at the A15. That's the end of the run. If the penalty is declined that's where the ball will be put in play, not at the previous spot, A20.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Indy_Stu

All -

Thanks for the posts. I agree an IFP is a penalty, for that matter any infraction that is accepted results in a penalty. Maybe a different way to state the question is, if a penalty is declined was there a penalty? B declined in the given situation.

Okay. B declines the penalty. The end of the run is the end zone. We can't snap the ball for the next down in the end zone, can we?

[JasonTX]

NCAA is different than Fed on this one. A couple years ago the NCAA rule was the same as Fed, but now the NCAA has an exception to this. If thrown from the end zone, the offended team can decline the penalty and take the "artificial" incomplete pass.

[Indy_Stu]

Fair enough, thanks for the input. One last though . . .

I guess I am having trouble with two points. One, B declined the penalty. An infraction occurred that was declined. B should have choices. Table 7-5-2 does classify intentional grounding as an illegal forward pass. Yes end of run in the end zone, blah blah blah. Why can't B decline penalty and take results of play, in this case an incomplete pass. They may want to decline and go for TD?

One more scenario that involves IFP: QB A12 takes snap and drops 5 yards deep into the end zone and throws forward pass (legal) to end A80. End A80 catches pass then throws long forward pass (2nd FP, so IFP) from 1 yard deep in end zone.
a) Ball is intercepted inbounds and returned for a TD by B. Snap, first run ends, loose ball, another run ends, second loose ball, followed by run. B would choose to take results of the play which is a TD. They decline the penalty to take results of the play.
b) Same scenario, but pass falls incomplete. There is no run following the last loose ball. B declines penalty. End of run was in the end zone, followed by IFP. B declines penalty, maybe because it was 4th down and they want to try for TD.

Does B have to take a safety in both IFP scenarios - - intentional grounding and 2nd FP?

[Bob M.]

REPLY: When you need to set the ball following an incomplete forward pass, you need to keep one thing in mind: The last sentence of the pertinent rule says, "If the pass is legal, the passing team next snaps the ball at the previous spot, unless lost after fourth down." For an illegal forward pass, the ball is returned to the end of the run (spot of the foul) as the others have said.

For those who might care, the NCAA has an exception that allows B to treat an incomplete illegal forward pass from A's end zone as if it were a legal forward pass, i.e. return it to the previous spot. PLAY: A, 4-10 from A's 5. A10 under duress, intentionally grounds a forward pass from his endzone.

NCAA RULING: B can take the safety (gets 2 points) and A will free kick from their 20, or B can take the ball 1 and goal from A's 5.

FEDERATION RULING: A is awarded 2 points for the safety. No other opions. A free kicks from their 20.

Sorry Jason...I didn't see your post when I posted my response.

[kdf5]

Indy_Stu: It seems to me that you are hung up on the illegal forward pass being incomplete and going back to the previous spot. If an IFP is thrown from the EZ and incomplete then you have safety no matter what because even though it's a pass and it's incomplete it's still a running play as far as any penalty enforcement and the all but one. An incomplete IFP is the same as if the QB was sacked in the EZ. I think you've got that concept, right?

If an IFP is thrown from the EZ and it's complete then you have a different set of cirucmstances. What you have is a completed pass. If B intercepts an IFP (thrown from EZ), they CAN decline the safety and keep the ball. The issue is an incomplete IFP - it is a run and the end of the run is the spot where the ball was thrown. I hope I didn't beat to death something you already know. If so, I apologize.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Indy_Stu

Fair enough, thanks for the input. One last though . . .

I guess I am having trouble with two points. One, B declined the penalty. An infraction occurred that was declined. B should have choices. Table 7-5-2 does classify intentional grounding as an illegal forward pass. Yes end of run in the end zone, blah blah blah. Why can't B decline penalty and take results of play, in this case an incomplete pass. They may want to decline and go for TD?

Please stop blah, blah, blahing and read what we're trying to tell you. You're not listening to us. You're blah, blah, blahing over the most important part of the play.

The result of the play is not an incomplete pass. It's an incomplete illegal forward pass. The result of the play is a run that ended in the end zone. On a incomplete legal forward pass, the ball goes back to the previous spot. On an incomplete illegal forward pass, the ball is marked at the end of the run. The play is just as if A1 had been tackled in the end zone because that's where the run ended.

One more scenario that involves IFP: QB A12 takes snap and drops 5 yards deep into the end zone and throws forward pass (legal) to end A80. End A80 catches pass then throws long forward pass (2nd FP, so IFP) from 1 yard deep in end zone.
a) Ball is intercepted inbounds and returned for a TD by B. Snap, first run ends, loose ball, another run ends, second loose ball, followed by run. B would choose to take results of the play which is a TD. They decline the penalty to take results of the play.

b) Same scenario, but pass falls incomplete. There is no run following the last loose ball. B declines penalty. End of run was in the end zone, followed by IFP. B declines penalty, maybe because it was 4th down and they want to try for TD.

Does B have to take a safety in both IFP scenarios - - intentional grounding and 2nd FP?

a) The end of the play is NOT a run that ended in the end zone. Touchdown.
b)If incomplete, then the play ended with a run by A in B's end zone. It's no different than being tackled there. Safety.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: Indy_Stu...let's give this one more try: The rule which governs placement of the ball for the next down says:
"If the pass is legal, the passing team next snaps the ball at the previous spot, unless lost after fourth down." There should be no problems here.

Now, if your question was intended to ask "Why doesn't the Federation have a rule like the NCAA's which would allow the ball to be placed at the previous spot?" then there's merit to the question. And it needs to be directed to the Federation Rules Committee for consideration through your state committee member, Mr. Cox.

But if your question is indeed "Why can't B decline (the) penalty and take results of play, in this case an incomplete pass," asked in the context of the current Federation rules, then it's simply without merit. The rules are very clear that the ball is placed at the spot of the end of the run. Hence, safety regardless of whether the penalty is accepted or not.