TB, Safety, or???

[ljudge]

I just received a cell phone call about a play that just happened 5 minutes ago in a championship midget game asking if the officials made a proper ruling.

A's has a long run down to B's 2 yard line. A fumbles at the 2 and the ball rolls into B's end zone where B illegally kicks the ball over the endline.

Ruling: If foul declined, result of play would be a touchback since A provided the force. If the penalty is accepted it would NOT be a safety, but rather A's ball 1st and goal at the 1 yard line. I agreed with that because B fouled while A was still in team possession of the ball so enforce from the end of A's run.

I had to think about that for a minute as my initial thought was safety. Then I got to thinking if B had possessed the ball (and it became dead in the EZ) and fouled in the endzone then it would be a safety because it would be a foul behind the basic spot (the 20). But in this case B fouled while A had the ball during a running play. If team possession had changed I would rule safety.

I just want to double check on both situations for my own sanity.

[Jim S]

Now see, this is what happens when you start thinking too much. :>)
It is indeed going to be A's ball at the 1. This was a foul during a loose ball following a run (not a loose ball play). The basic spot is the end of the related run.

[ljudge]

Whew. Jim, you know me without knowing me. That's not the first time someone has said that to me. Thanks for the quick reply.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by ljudge
I just received a cell phone call about a play that just happened 5 minutes ago in a championship midget game asking if the officials made a proper ruling.

A's has a long run down to B's 2 yard line. A fumbles at the 2 and the ball rolls into B's end zone where B illegally kicks the ball over the endline.

Ruling: If foul declined, result of play would be a touchback since A provided the force. If the penalty is accepted it would NOT be a safety, but rather A's ball 1st and goal at the 1 yard line. I agreed with that because B fouled while A was still in team possession of the ball so enforce from the end of A's run.

I had to think about that for a minute as my initial thought was safety. Then I got to thinking if B had possessed the ball (and it became dead in the EZ) and fouled in the endzone then it would be a safety because it would be a foul behind the basic spot (the 20). But in this case B fouled while A had the ball during a running play. If team possession had changed I would rule safety.

I just want to double check on both situations for my own sanity.

In Canada, B's kick is not illegal. The kick going OB results in a safety. No other options.

EDIT: I will have to re-visit the reply concerning the Canadian ruling. I shall do so soon.

[Edited by JugglingReferee on Nov 28th, 2004 at 10:15 PM]

[Base]

Would the ruling be same, if all things are as describted, but: fourth down and goal?
Does AR 8-7-2-IX-b apply?
Thanks

[Jim S]

Hey, ljudge, when I first responded to your question I knew there was something wrong. You stated "If foul declined, result of play would be a touchback since A provided the force"
Not necessarially true. If no one was in player possession of such a ball when it is declared dead it would be a TD for A.

[ljudge]

The ball didn't become dead in the EZ. It was kicked over the endline so it would have to be a TB if the foul was declined. Your scenario is valid and a good one to think about however. It would definitely be a TD if the ball became dead in the EZ with no player in possession b/c team A is still in team possession.

[Bob M.]

Originally posted by Base
Would the ruling be same, if all things are as describted, but: fourth down and goal?
Does AR 8-7-2-IX-b apply?
Thanks

REPLY: Base...it appears that all the ruliings so far have been Federation. Your question highlights a difference between Fed and NCAA on fourth down fumbles. Your cited AR would prevail for NCAA.

[Base]

Yes, I forgot to mention it.
So: NCAA rules, Team A´s 3rd&goal on B´s 10. Team A fumbles at 2 and loose ball is kicked form the EZ over the goal line by Team B.
What is the ruling?
-3th down on B´s 1 for A if accepted (rule 5-2-9)
-TB if declined (rules 8-6-1-a and 8-7-2-b-1-exc)
?
And what would the ruling be, if this happens on fourth down? I mentioned AR 8-7-2-IX-b, but as the penalty would half the distance to the goal, Team A would still be short of gaining first down, so Team B´s ball at their own one-yard line?
Please do not try to compare it with Fed (or other) rules, as I know nothing about them
Thank you for answer

[Base]

3rd not 3th down, but I think, you noticed that English is not my native language:-)