Forward Progress

[AZ_REF]

At our local association meeting tonight I had a question that nobody could answer with a rule or case play.

If A1 is in the end zone and makes a diving catch over the endline and is:

A: Pushed back in by B1 who was in front of him and lands in the endzone

or

B: Pulled back in by B2 and lands in the endzone


What do you have?

The best answer I got is a touchdown because B was stupid. But I couldn't find that verbage in the rules. Any thoughts?

[JasonTX]

I'm not sure of the definitions of a completed catch under Fed rules, but I'd assume it has something to do with having control of the ball and 1 foot or some other part of his body down inbounds. In both of your plays it appears as though he has control of the ball and he landed inbouds so I'd say that meets the defintion of a completed pass and since this is in the end zone then we have a TD. Under NCAA it doesn't matter that he would have landed out of bounds if B didn't pull him back in. All that matters is what did happen not how it happened.

[Theisey]

NFHS: What more do you need?

In each case play, the team-A receiver is downed in the EZ. Touchdown.

The harder question would be what if the defensive player "pushed" the receiver so he lands OOB beyond the endline or pulled back so he lands in the field of play.
The NF rule and case books have words to basically cover those cases.

[AndrewMcCarthy]

I'm having a hard time imagining this happening without the B player standing out of bounds. If that's the case- A is controlling the ball while he's in the air while touching B who is out of bounds, the ball would be considered dead before A ever touched the ground.

Incomplete pass- but a real tough sell.

[AZ_REF]

Originally Posted by AndrewMcCarthy

I'm having a hard time imagining this happening without the B player standing out of bounds. If that's the case- A is controlling the ball while he's in the air while touching B who is out of bounds, the ball would be considered dead before A ever touched the ground.

Incomplete pass- but a real tough sell.

That's what I thought as well. B would have to be out of bounds. Actually that may be an easier sell to A's coach than explaining "well he wouldn't have scored but your player knocked him" in to B's coach.

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by AndrewMcCarthy

I'm having a hard time imagining this happening without the B player standing out of bounds. If that's the case- A is controlling the ball while he's in the air while touching B who is out of bounds, the ball would be considered dead before A ever touched the ground.

Incomplete pass- but a real tough sell.

REPLY: Not true...See NF 2-28-2 and NCAA 4-2-1a

[Opie]

This one is easy. 8-2-1. Possession of a live ball in the opponents endzone is always a touchdown.

[Theisey]

Originally Posted by AndrewMcCarthy

I'm having a hard time imagining this happening without the B player standing out of bounds. If that's the case- A is controlling the ball while he's in the air while touching B who is out of bounds, the ball would be considered dead before A ever touched the ground.

Incomplete pass- but a real tough sell.

Sheesh, if that was true, then all a B player would have to do while chasing a runner would be to step on the sidelines and touch the runner while screaming to the ref that the play is over.

[AndrewMcCarthy]

I'll go crawl back in my hole now.

[Theisey]

Don't do that Andrew, at least you had the guts to ask about it. I think we all might know some that actually would or did call it that way. I know you will not make that mistake

[AZ_REF]

Originally Posted by Opie

This one is easy. 8-2-1. Possession of a live ball in the opponents endzone is always a touchdown.

But if forward progress was over the endline it wouldn't be a live ball anymore.

[Opie]

Originally Posted by AZ_REF

But if forward progress was over the endline it wouldn't be a live ball anymore.

So you are saying you will blow this dead while the player is still in the air because the ball is dead before he even comes down?? No way.
This ball is live until he comes down. At that point he is in the EZ with a live ball that then becomes dead because of the TD.

[Warrenkicker]

Possession requires touching the ground so you have to make sure he controls the ball until he has both feet down. Then you can rule on progress.

[The Roamin' Umpire]

Originally Posted by AZ_REF

But if forward progress was over the endline it wouldn't be a live ball anymore.

This is a fair point, but the answer lies in 2-28-2 and 8-2-1b. The definition of OOB says nothing about forward progress - the receiver's not OOB until he touches OOB. And the rule on touchdowns doesn't mention the end line - it just says that a player has possession of a live ball on or beyond the opponents' goal line.

If you're still not convinced, consider this play: Receiver reaches over the end line to make a catch, with his feet still inbounds. I expect you'd rule TD on that play, and your example is more-or-less eqivalent.

[mcrowder]

The long and short is that the endline is meaningless until a ballcarrier touches the ground out of bounds or the ball touches a player that is out of bounds.