Safety - Touchback - Forward Progress?

cdnRef · #1 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 15, 2004, 05:37pm

I grabbed this from another board because there was a good discussion about it there.

R1 receives a free kick on his 1 yard line. He muffs the kick forward to the 2 1/2. K1 is coming hard. R1 picks up the ball at the 2 1/2. R3 is in front of R1 at the 4 yard line. K1 hits R3 so hard that he goes back and hits R1 after he has just picked up the ball and gets knocked back into the endzone. R1 attempts to run the ball out of the endzone and is tackled in the endzone.

So, safety, touchback, forward progress, something else? Make sure you state NF or NCAA (I don't know if there would be a difference)

MJT · #2 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 15, 2004, 06:41pm

Quote:

Originally posted by cdnRef
I grabbed this from another board because there was a good discussion about it there.

R1 receives a free kick on his 1 yard line. He muffs the kick forward to the 2 1/2. K1 is coming hard. R1 picks up the ball at the 2 1/2. R3 is in front of R1 at the 4 yard line. K1 hits R3 so hard that he goes back and hits R1 after he has just picked up the ball and gets knocked back into the endzone. R1 attempts to run the ball out of the endzone and is tackled in the endzone.

So, safety, touchback, forward progress, something else? Make sure you state NF or NCAA (I don't know if there would be a difference)

His forward progress was stopped at the 1, but did he "on his own" instead of being downed try to run it out of the EZ? If so, it would be a safety, just as if he on his own changed his direction on the field and circled back into the EZ and was tackled. Now if after being knocked back into the EZ, he was tackled immediately, I think you have the ball at the 1, where forward progress was stopped. This is a tough one, cuz if soon as he is stopped in the EZ if he is not contacted by a defender, I'd say he must get out of the EZ to avoid a safety.

ljudge · #3 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 15, 2004, 08:41pm

I agree w/ MJT. If he hadn't tried to run the ball out of the EZ I probably would have ruled progress but he attempted to run out of the EZ so he's responsible for the ball becoming dead there.

JugglingReferee · #4 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 15, 2004, 10:43pm

Quote:

Originally posted by cdnRef
I grabbed this from another board because there was a good discussion about it there.

R1 receives a free kick on his 1 yard line. He muffs the kick forward to the 2 1/2. K1 is coming hard. R1 picks up the ball at the 2 1/2. R3 is in front of R1 at the 4 yard line. K1 hits R3 so hard that he goes back and hits R1 after he has just picked up the ball and gets knocked back into the endzone. R1 attempts to run the ball out of the endzone and is tackled in the endzone.

So, safety, touchback, forward progress, something else? Make sure you state NF or NCAA (I don't know if there would be a difference)

My understanding of the Canadian amateur game is that FP was the 2½. If B1 tries to exit the EZ on his own, then being tackled in the EZ results in a safety. If he does not try to exit and is tackled in the EZ, I think you give progress to the 2½.

mcrowder · #5 (**permalink**) Thu Dec 16, 2004, 09:05am

I agree with the previous posts except that we should spot forward progress at the 2 1/2, like JR says. What the referee must rule on is whether R1 reestablished himself in the endzone - if so, he must get out on his own, but if not, it's FP. Put this whole play at the 50 and it's clear... so rule on this like it was at the 50.

MJT · #6 (**permalink**) Thu Dec 16, 2004, 09:20am

Quote:

Originally posted by mcrowder
I agree with the previous posts except that we should spot forward progress at the 2 1/2, like JR says. What the referee must rule on is whether R1 reestablished himself in the endzone - if so, he must get out on his own, but if not, it's FP. Put this whole play at the 50 and it's clear... so rule on this like it was at the 50.

You're right on the forward progress being at the 2 1/2, not the 1.

kdf5 · #7 (**permalink**) Thu Dec 16, 2004, 10:29am

If he was on the 2.5 and got knocked down by the original hit by B and was in the EZ, I would give him FP on the 2.5. If he's still standing in the EZ then tries to run the ball out and is downed, I have a safety.

Bob M. · #8 (**permalink**) Thu Dec 16, 2004, 12:23pm

REPLY: As described, I don't see how this could be anything but a safety. Even if he fell once in the endzone, I would still rule a safety. I don't believe that his being contacted by his teammate and knocked backwards would allow you to rule that forward progress had been stopped outside the endzone. Just my $.02

Base · #9 (**permalink**) Thu Dec 16, 2004, 01:18pm

Interesting Q.
I believe FP should be used, as K1Â´s run was stopped by opposing teamÂ´s action (even it was through his own teammate). Similar question would be "incomplete sack" where QB is tackled on 2.5, driven back to -3, but not downed (and action not whistled), QB escapes and tries to run out of the endzone (well, if he escapes on his own, that he has to), but is downed in the EZ. Ruling should be safety. WouldnÂ´t he escape, ruling would be next down on 2.5

MJT · #10 (**permalink**) Thu Dec 16, 2004, 02:09pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob M.
REPLY: As described, I don't see how this could be anything but a safety. Even if he fell once in the endzone, I would still rule a safety. I don't believe that his being contacted by his teammate and knocked backwards would allow you to rule that forward progress had been stopped outside the endzone. Just my $.02

But Bob, if you look at the definition of forward progress, it does not mention that the progress is stopped by an opponent. That is why I believe it would be at the 2 1/2

HFOA..ref46 · #11 (**permalink**) Thu Dec 16, 2004, 03:32pm

yes since he tried to exit under his own power out of the endzone then it should be a safety touch.

waltjp · #12 (**permalink**) Thu Dec 16, 2004, 03:41pm

If a back ran to the wrong hole, ran into a pulling guard behind the line of scrimmage, stumbled back for 3 yards and fell, where would you mark the ball? I believe you'd put it at the spot where he was down, not where he ran into the guard.

Using this logic I'd rule this play a safety in either case.

Base · #13 (**permalink**) Thu Dec 16, 2004, 04:29pm

waltjp, yes, but this is another story, I guess. May be, this will be discribted in approved rulings for 2005:-)

Bob M. · #14 (**permalink**) Fri Dec 17, 2004, 09:41am

Quote:

Originally posted by MJT

But Bob, if you look at the definition of forward progress, it does not mention that the progress is stopped by an opponent. That is why I believe it would be at the 2 1/2

REPLY: Monte...I know this is a different scenario, but I'm trying to address the rationale you gave for forward progress, i.e. the wording of NF 4-2-2a and NCAA 4-1-3a, and possibly poke some holes. I realize that neither code explicity says that the progress must be stopped by an opponent, but... PLAY: B3 intercepts A's pass in his endzone. He begins to run it out. He's at B's 1 where his teammate (wanting the TB) shoves him back into the EZ where he falls. You have...?

mcrowder · #15 (**permalink**) Fri Dec 17, 2004, 09:54am

I think I would have a hard time justifying a safety anyway, as his FP was to the 1, and who tackled him is not really relevant (say he was running laterally at the one, tripped over his own guy, and fell into the EZ - you give him the ball at the 1).

But even if you can convince me that the above is wrong, there is STILL a difference between your own player pushing you on his own volition and the DEFENDER pushing your own player into you.