Stump the Chump -- Feb 16

[mikesears]

I'm with Bob M on this one.



Here is the Series of Downs rule with the "conflicting" rules. (Rule 5-1-3):

When a scrimmage down ends with the ball in the field of play or out of bounds between the goal lines, a new series is awarded to:

B, if at the end of the fourth down, the ball belongs to A behind the line to gain.


The team in possession at the end of the down, if R is the first to touch a scrimmage kick while it is beyond the expanded neutral zone, unless the penalty is accepted for a non post-scrimmage kick foul which occurred before the kick ended.


In my opinion the more specific rule that deals with our situation is the 2nd rule BECAUSE it involves R touching a scrimmage kick beyond the ENZ. That act will give the TEAM in possession of the ball a new series when the down ends. Team possession did not change during the down. An incomplete forward pass does not change team possession. Team A still has team possession.


Let's remove the incomplete pass totally from the equation. What would the ruling be? Which rule takes precedence?



[Edited by mikesears on Mar 9th, 2005 at 10:59 AM]

[kdf5]

After reading the relevant rules again, it seems to me that the easiest way to rule on this is to remember that K could pick up this ball and advance it and if he can advance it then he could also throw it or punt it as well. Does that make sense or am I off the mark?

[MJT]

Originally posted by Bob M.

REPLY: I'm with you here...your crew member needs a little bit more grounding in the fundamentals!


Now, for the original play, do you think that NF 5-1-2b might play a part in the ruling? NF 5-1-2b: "After a fourth down, a new series shall be awarded only after considering the effect of any act during the down, other than a non-player or unsportsmanlike foul." The touching by B/R must be considered prior to determining who to award a new series to. Right?

Also, take a look at Case Book Play 5.1.3 Situation C, part (b) (abbreviated): 4th and 10 from K's 45-yard line. K1 punts the ball beyond the NZ, R1 muffs it back behind the NZ where K1 recovers and throws a forward pass to K3 which is complete and the 50 and R1 interferes with K3.

Ruling: Since R1touched the locl beyond the NZ, it will be first down for the team in possession. The pass is legal, as there has been no change of possession. If K accepts the penalty for interference, it will be K's ball at R's 40-yard line.

Unfortunately, they don't say what the result would be if K declined the penalty. The reason for this omission is that it's obvious K will accept, since declination would give K a first down at the 50. K gains 10 yards by accepting the penalty.

[Edited by Bob M. on Mar 9th, 2005 at 09:25 AM]

The casebook play is totally different cuz the pass is complete. I think you are probably correct on the whole matter, but the fact of the incomplete forward pass on 4th down is the problem. The problem then becomes, who is in possession at the end of the 4th down incomplete pass??????? Do you at least agree that being it was an incomplete pass on 4th down that we have some fog over the situation??

[MJT]

Originally posted by mikesears
I'm with Bob M on this one.


In my opinion the more specific rule that deals with our situation is the 2nd rule BECAUSE it involves R touching a scrimmage kick beyond the ENZ. That act will give the TEAM in possession of the ball a new series when the down ends. Team possession did not change during the down. An incomplete forward pass does not change team possession. Team A still has team possession.


Let's remove the incomplete pass totally from the equation. What would the ruling be? Which rule takes precedence?



[Edited by mikesears on Mar 9th, 2005 at 10:59 AM]

We cannot remover the incomplete pass, cuz that is the hitch to the whole problem.

On an incomplete forward pass on 4th down, team possession does change if there are no penalties, which there were not. Now 5-2-b says you also must consider the effect of any act during the down, which R's touching is probably what determines that we will have a first down for A. I initially said the same, saw some fog with the "4th down incomplete pass" so thought I'd throw out my idea, and defend it to see how far it may get. I was fully aware I would be dispelled, and come back to my original, and safer thought. Just wanted to get the juices flowing and the rule books opened. GOOD DISCUSSION!

[mikesears]

I agree that the discussion is good. I appreciate the question because it does make us get into the book. It really makes us all work on understanding definitions and rules.



The reason I recommended removing the incomplete pass from the equation is that we would have Team A in possession of the ball behind the line to gain.

Here is the play without that. 4/10 from the A-20. A1 punts the ball high and short. B1 attempts to catch the punt the at the A-28 and muffs the ball. A2 recovers the muffed punt at the A-18 and advances to the A-22.

Whose ball is it? If we want to argue that A is in possession of the ball behind the line to gain, it would be B's ball. But no rules knowledgable official would make that ruling because of the rule regarding B touching a scrimmage kick beyond the ENZ.

I don't see how adding an ADDITIONAL act of an imcomplete pass changes this. Still had a scrimmage kick that B touched beyond the ENZ.


Am I making sense in what I am trying to hilight here?


The rule doesn't say that after an incomplete pass on 4th down, the ball belongs to B. It says that if the ball belongs to A behind the line to gain, B is awarded a new series. It doesn't matter why the ball is behind the line to gain. If it is returned to the previous spot because of an incomplete pass or if A fails to run it beyond the line to gain, it never got there. So, I humbly assert that the specific rule regarding B touching a scrimmage kick beyond the line to gain takes precedence over the general rule regarding A not making the line to gain.





[Edited by mikesears on Mar 9th, 2005 at 12:41 PM]

[mikesears]

Originally posted by Maxbk
Fed…How can A/K even get a pass off. Once they recover B’s muff regardless of the location of the recovery by A/K the play will be dead. It should be A’s ball at point of recovery

Not under NFHS rules. If A (K) recovers (in or???) behind the neutral zone, they can advance the ball. It does not matter if the ball crossed the neutral zone.

[KWH]

It appears that some of you contend NFHS 5-1-3c is in direct conflict with NFHS 5-1-3f.

Using NFHS logic, these two rules can never conflict as;
NFHS 5-1-3c is applicable only while players of A and B are on the field,
while,
NFHS 5-1-3f is applicable only while players of K and R are one the field.

Reference: NFHS 2-42-3 and 2-42-4
Note that 2-42-4 states that Team designations are retained until the ball is next declared ready for play

Since Team desinations do not change during a down, 5-1-3c DOES NOT APPLY to the play in question.

Hence, since only 5-1-3f applies to the play in question, the answer then to your original play has to be:
1st and 10 for K at midfield

Don't ya'll just love these forums??

[MJT]

Originally posted by mikesears

I agree that the discussion is good. I appreciate the question because it does make us get into the book. It really makes us all work on understanding definitions and rules.



The reason I recommended removing the incomplete pass from the equation is that we would have Team A in possession of the ball behind the line to gain.

Here is the play without that. 4/10 from the A-20. A1 punts the ball high and short. B1 attempts to catch the punt the at the A-28 and muffs the ball. A2 recovers the muffed punt at the A-18 and advances to the A-22.

Whose ball is it? If we want to argue that A is in possession of the ball behind the line to gain, it would be B's ball. But no rules knowledgable official would make that ruling because of the rule regarding B touching a scrimmage kick beyond the ENZ.

I don't see how adding an ADDITIONAL act of an imcomplete pass changes this. Still had a scrimmage kick that B touched beyond the ENZ.

Am I making sense in what I am trying to hilight here?

(even though B touched a scrimmage kick). Is A awarded a new series? Of course, because of the rule regarding giving a new series to the team in possession after a scrimmage kick if B touches the ball beyond the ENZ.

I totally agree with all you have said. Your above play is an easy one for knowlegdable rules people, it would be 1-10 for A at A's 22. I just thought the ADDITIONAL ACT may complicate things a bit, and thought I'd throw it out there. Like I said, I was pretty certain of the answer, just wanted to fog it up and see how it eventually cleared.

[MJT]

Originally posted by Maxbk
Fed…How can A/K even get a pass off. Once they recover B’s muff regardless of the location of the recovery by A/K the play will be dead. It should be A’s ball at point of recovery

That is an NCAA rule only.

[MJT]

Originally posted by KWH
It appears that some of you contend NFHS 5-1-3c is in direct conflict with NFHS 5-1-3f.

Using NFHS logic, these two rules can never conflict as;
NFHS 5-1-3c is applicable only while players of A and B are on the field,
while,
NFHS 5-1-3f is applicable only while players of K and R are one the field.

Reference: NFHS 2-42-3 and 2-42-4
Note that 2-42-4 states that Team designations are retained until the ball is next declared ready for play

Since Team desinations do not change during a down, 5-1-3c DOES NOT APPLY to the play in question.

Hence, since only 5-1-3f applies to the play in question, the answer then to your original play has to be:
1st and 10 for K at midfield

Don't ya'll just love these forums??

Good point. So my question to you is, on a normal 4th down incomplete pass by A, who is in possession at the end of the down?? A or B. If we agree it is still A until the RFP, then we have no problem, if we say B, now we have a major problem which I have pointed out.

[KWH]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MJT

Good point. So my question to you is, on a normal 4th down incomplete pass by A, who is in possession at the end of the down?? A or B. If we agree it is still A until the RFP, then we have no problem, if we say B, now we have a major problem which I have pointed out.

To answer your question lets break it down,

1) By definition, (2-32-2) the LIVE BALL is in Team Possession of A during your 4th down play.

2) By rule, (5-1-3c) a NEW SERIES is awarded to B if at the end of 4th down the ball belongs to A behind the line to gain.

The correct answer to your question then is: A is in possession after the 4th down incomplete pass.
And, since A is in possession of the ball behind the line to gain after the completion of 4th down, by rule(5-1-3c), A new series is awarded to B.

I hope this helps...

[MJT]

And there we have it! That defeats my main arguement, so like I said, I'm back to 1-10 for A.

[Warrenkicker]

This is a play which would put any crew on the spot. Both arguements have their validity. Both have their rules backing them. We all know that if there had not been any forward pass attempted that K would keep the ball. We also know that if A had not kicked the ball and ended the 4th down play with a legal incomplete pass that it would be B's ball. I am leaning toward allowing K to keep the ball because of the touching by R but explaining how a team can keep the ball after throwing an incomplete forward pass might just get us run out of the stadium.

It would clarify things under NF rules to say that after a legal kick it is illegal to attempt a forward pass and vice versa.

[KWH]

Originally posted by Warrenkicker
It would clarify things under NF rules to say that after a legal kick it is illegal to attempt a forward pass and vice versa.

That would require an EXCEPTION, a word rarely used in NFHS codes.
Unlike the NCAA, the NFHS mindset is NOT to write an exception anytime a waterbucket type play (such as this one for example) occurs and some coach, AD, or school feels it needs fixing.
I'm not saying the NCAA mindset is wrong, but on this issue, the two codes have two distinct schools of thought.
The results are obvious, the NCAA rules have so many exceptions they can't be counted without the use of a adding machine, while the NFHS rules utilize but a small handful of exceptions.

[Edited by KWH on Mar 10th, 2005 at 01:38 PM]

[WVREF]

To make this situation even uglier assume that after K recovers the kick behind the line (that was muffed by R beyond the line) he then throws an illegal forward pass.