Stump the Chump -- Feb 16

[Bob M.]

For this Stump-the-Chump exercise, I’ve presented a few relatively easy play situations. They shouldn’t require a lot of thought for either NCAA or Federation codes. But…there may be dramatic differences between a Federation ruling and an NCAA ruling. The purpose is simply to point out those differences. Make sure you specify whether your response is for NCAA or Federation. So read everybody's responses so you can see how different Friday night games are from Saturday afternoon contests! Or why Texas and Massachussetts football is so different than the rest of the US.

1. Free kick from A’s 40. Ball is rolling at B’s 4 where B12 muffs it and it rolls into B’s end zone. A34 recovers it there.

2. A, 3-5 from midfield. Wide receiver A88 inadvertently steps OOB at B’s 45 and returns immediately at B’s 43. Defender B22 pushes A88 just before a forward pass (catchable for NCAA purposes) falls incomplete nearby. QB A10 is roughed on the play.

3. On 4-8 from B’s 40, punter A8 muffs the snap. Under pressure, he recovers and scrambles to B’s 38 (beyond the NZ) where he punts downfield. The ball rolls into B’s EZ where A89 recovers it.

4. On 4-7 from midfield, QB A12 scrambles. He runs to B’s 48. He circles back to A’s 48 where he throws a forward pass to teammate A87 who runs it into B’s end zone.

5. With 0:10 seconds remaining in the game, A leads 23-20. On 4-10 from A’s 2. QB A11 is under pressure in his end zone. He intentionally grounds a pass to avoid a loss of yardage. Clock reads 0:02 at the end of the down.

[ljudge]

Here's a shot from a Federation perspective:

1. Free kick from A’s 40. Ball is rolling at B’s 4 where B12 muffs it and it rolls into B’s end zone. A34 recovers it there.

Ruling: Touchback

2. A, 3-5 from midfield. Wide receiver A88 inadvertently steps OOB at B’s 45 and returns immediately at B’s 43. Defender B22 pushes A88 just before a forward pass (catchable for NCAA purposes) falls incomplete nearby. QB A10 is roughed on the play.

Ruling: Double foul; replay the down. A88 has committed IP, B22 commits DPI, and a B player has committed roughing the passer.

3. On 4-8 from B’s 40, punter A8 muffs the snap. Under pressure, he recovers and scrambles to B’s 38 (beyond the NZ) where he punts downfield. The ball rolls into B’s EZ where A89 recovers it.

Ruling: I say the kick is still illegal even though the kicker is in the ENZ. If the foul is accepted it's 15 from the previous, replay the down. If declined then it would be a TD as an illegal kick is treated as a fumble and I believe you can't have a touchback on an illegal kick.

4. On 4-7 from midfield, QB A12 scrambles. He runs to B’s 48. He circles back to A’s 48 where he throws a forward pass to teammate A87 who runs it into B’s end zone.

Ruling: TD for A. The pass is legal.

5. With 0:10 seconds remaining in the game, A leads 23-20. On 4-10 from A’s 2. QB A11 is under pressure in his end zone. He intentionally grounds a pass to avoid a loss of yardage. Clock reads 0:02 at the end of the down.

Ruling: It's a safety whether the grounding is accepted or declined because the run ended in the endzone and the play ended there. There will need to be an untimed down for the free kick at a minimum as possession has changed and a safety was involved.

[kdf5]

Originally posted by ljudge

5. With 0:10 seconds remaining in the game, A leads 23-20. On 4-10 from A’s 2. QB A11 is under pressure in his end zone. He intentionally grounds a pass to avoid a loss of yardage. Clock reads 0:02 at the end of the down.

Ruling: It's a safety whether the grounding is accepted or declined because the run ended in the endzone and the play ended there. There will need to be an untimed down for the free kick at a minimum as possession has changed and a safety was involved. [/B]

The free kick will happen, however, I disagree with your statement that it will be an untimed down. A down begins with a legal snap or a free kick (2-7-1), so the free kick is going to be the last timed down of the period, not the safety since there is still :02 on the clock.

[MJT]

Here is my take with both codes.

1. Free kick from A’s 40. Ball is rolling at B’s 4 where B12 muffs it and it rolls into B’s end zone. A34 recovers it there.
NF – TB for B - ball is dead when it breaks plane of EZ since it was only muffed, the kick never ended
NCAA – TD for team A

2. A, 3-5 from midfield. Wide receiver A88 inadvertently steps OOB at B’s 45 and returns immediately at B’s 43. Defender B22 pushes A88 just before a forward pass (catchable for NCAA purposes) falls incomplete nearby. QB A10 is roughed on the play.
NF – double foul and replay, 3 fouls were IP, DPI, and RTP
NCAA – No IP cuz he was not first to touch ball, no DPI cuz he is an ineligible receiver when he went OOB’s and you cannot have DPI on an ineligible, so the only foul we have is RTP – result 1-10 at the B’s 35 yard line.


3. On 4-8 from B’s 40, punter A8 muffs the snap. Under pressure, he recovers and scrambles to B’s 38 (beyond the NZ) where he punts downfield. The ball rolls into B’s EZ where A89 recovers it.
NF – Illegal kick, penalize 15 yards from PS and repeat the down, or if they decline TD for A as in NF an illegal kick is treated as a fumble – DON’T let B decline! Result 4-23 from B’s 25
NCAA – ball is dead at spot of illegal kick, 5 yard penalty from PS and LOD - so B’s ball 1-10 at B’s 45


4. On 4-7 from midfield, QB A12 scrambles. He runs to B’s 48. He circles back to A’s 48 where he throws a forward pass to teammate A87 who runs it into B’s end zone.
NF – no foul as he can cross NZ and come back as long as he both of his feet are behind NZ at time of pass
NCAA – Illegal forward pass as in NCAA once you have crossed the NZ you may not return behind it and pass the ball legally. Penalty is 5 yards from spot of foul and LOD, so result is 4-14 from B’s 43.


5. With 0:10 seconds remaining in the game, A leads 23-20. On 4-10 from A’s 2. QB A11 is under pressure in his end zone. He intentionally grounds a pass to avoid a loss of yardage. Clock reads 0:02 at the end of the down.
NF – Safety, and unfortunately team B does not have the option of taking the ball at another spot and trying to win the game on the last play.
NCAA - B can accept the penalty which would result in a safety, or decline the penalty, have the down count and accept the result of the play at the previous spot with the result being B’s ball 1-goal at the 2 yard line.

[MJT]

Bob, good post, please put on McGriffs as well. The McGriff's STChumpers have been diminishing.

[mcrowder]

4. NCAA - penalty is LOD - it's not 4th, it's 1st and 10 for B.

3. FED - "Don't let B decline!!!" What if B was behind by 1 pt when the play started, and the clock ran out during this play. If B accepts the penalty, they are still down by 1, but A can simply down the ball on the untimed down - but if B declines, they are down by 8 - with a kickoff coming. They at least have a chance to win if they accept the TD.

PS - can't believe you guys in FED allow DPI on an ineligible receiver.

[Bob M.]

Originally posted by mcrowder
...PS - can't believe you guys in FED allow DPI on an ineligible receiver.

REPLY: One of the key differences between the two codes is that in Fed, if a player is eligible at the beginning of the down, he's eligible throughout the down -- regardless of what he does (or where he goes). So in fact, that DPI is against an eligible receiver whereas in NCAA a receiver loses his eligibility by going OOB.

[KWH]

Originally posted by MJT
Here is my take with both codes.



3. On 4-8 from B’s 40, punter A8 muffs the snap. Under pressure, he recovers and scrambles to B’s 38 (beyond the NZ) where he punts downfield. The ball rolls into B’s EZ where A89 recovers it.
NF – Illegal kick, penalize 15 yards from PS and repeat the down, or if they decline TD for A as in NF an illegal kick is treated as a fumble – DON’T let B decline! Result 4-23 from B’s 25
NCAA – ball is dead at spot of illegal kick, 5 yard penalty from PS and LOD - so B’s ball 1-10 at B’s 45

MJT-

On the FED portion of #3 you had an enforcment option error! (Plus you marched your penalty off in the wrong direction)
Under federation code, since this play by definition was a running play, the foul is enforced from the end of the run which would be the B38. (You were enforcing it from the PS as you would if it were a loose ball play.)
The key here is the illegal kick by A occurred beyond the neutral zone! (If B accepts the penalty it would be 4th and 21 on the A47 yard line)
Reference NFHS 10-3-2, 10-3-1c, and 2-31-1c

[ljudge]

kdf5 - I happen to be an Eagles fan. I didn't look at the clock. You're right it's not an untimed down and I have no idea why I said that. My point was supposed to be that there was going to be another play and that the safety would be enforced no matter what. My bad. To much watching the Eagles in the Super Bowl and their inability to even consider the clock.

[kdf5]

Originally posted by ljudge
kdf5 - I happen to be an Eagles fan. I didn't look at the clock. You're right it's not an untimed down and I have no idea why I said that. My point was supposed to be that there was going to be another play and that the safety would be enforced no matter what. My bad. To much watching the Eagles in the Super Bowl and their inability to even consider the clock.

You have to wonder sometimes how coaches and players can get paid as much as they do and still run the clock like a bunch of Pop Warners.

[MJT]

mcrowder and KWH, thanks for seeing my oversights! Sloppy answers occur when you don't look through your responses carefully enough. I figured if I messed up, some of you would correct me.

[WVREF]

FED: Next year if time HAD run out during situation 5 the game would be over even if the penalty was accepted.

[The Roamin' Umpire]

I'm most familiar with Fed rules, but I'll try both sets. Corrections definitely welcome.

Originally posted by Bob M.
1. Free kick from A's 40. Ball is rolling at B's 4 where B12 muffs it and it rolls into B's end zone. A34 recovers it there.

FED: Touchback as soon as the ball breaks the plane. A kick is a kick is a kick...
NCAA: I believe this is a touchdown for A. No touchback if the ball is touched by B before it hits the ground in the end zone.

2. A, 3-5 from midfield. Wide receiver A88 inadvertently steps OOB at B's 45 and returns immediately at B's 43. Defender B22 pushes A88 just before a forward pass (catchable for NCAA purposes) falls incomplete nearby. QB A10 is roughed on the play.

FED: A88 committed an ill. participation foul at the B43 - this is a live-ball IP foul. He's still -eligible- though, so we have DPI on B22. This creates a double foul; the roughing is just gravy at this point.

NCAA: Hmmm. I think NCAA rules only have a foul on A88 if he's the first one to touch the loose ball inbounds. I also suspect that he may no longer be eligible, but I could certainly be wrong here. In any event, I believe the end result is that A will accept the roughing penalty, bringing up 1/10 at B's 35 yard line.

3. On 4-8 from B's 40, punter A8 muffs the snap. Under pressure, he recovers and scrambles to B's 38 (beyond the NZ) where he punts downfield. The ball rolls into B's EZ where A89 recovers it.

FED: Illegal kick at B38. This is treated as a fumble, so A89's recovery is tehnically a TD. The penalty will of course be accepted, bringing up 4/21 from the A47.

NCAA: I have some memory that illegal kicks in NCAA include loss of down. If that's the case, then 'twould be B 1/10 at the A47.

4. On 4-7 from midfield, QB A12 scrambles. He runs to B's 48. He circles back to A's 48 where he throws a forward pass to teammate A87 who runs it into B's end zone.

FED: Legal pass, TD.
NCAA: Illegal pass, B 1/10 at the A43.

5. With 0:10 seconds remaining in the game, A leads 23-20. On 4-10 from A's 2. QB A11 is under pressure in his end zone. He intentionally grounds a pass to avoid a loss of yardage. Clock reads 0:02 at the end of the down.

FED: Safety no matter what.
NCAA: B may decline the penalty and take over on downs, 1/10 at the A2.

[Edited by The Roamin' Umpire on Feb 20th, 2005 at 11:24 AM]

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by Bob M.
For this Stump-the-Chump exercise, I’ve presented a few relatively easy play situations. They shouldn’t require a lot of thought for either NCAA or Federation codes. But…there may be dramatic differences between a Federation ruling and an NCAA ruling. The purpose is simply to point out those differences. Make sure you specify whether your response is for NCAA or Federation. So read everybody's responses so you can see how different Friday night games are from Saturday afternoon contests! Or why Texas and Massachussetts football is so different than the rest of the US.

1. Free kick from A’s 40. Ball is rolling at B’s 4 where B12 muffs it and it rolls into B’s end zone. A34 recovers it there.

2. A, 3-5 from midfield. Wide receiver A88 inadvertently steps OOB at B’s 45 and returns immediately at B’s 43. Defender B22 pushes A88 just before a forward pass (catchable for NCAA purposes) falls incomplete nearby. QB A10 is roughed on the play.

3. On 4-8 from B’s 40, punter A8 muffs the snap. Under pressure, he recovers and scrambles to B’s 38 (beyond the NZ) where he punts downfield. The ball rolls into B’s EZ where A89 recovers it.

4. On 4-7 from midfield, QB A12 scrambles. He runs to B’s 48. He circles back to A’s 48 where he throws a forward pass to teammate A87 who runs it into B’s end zone.

5. With 0:10 seconds remaining in the game, A leads 23-20. On 4-10 from A’s 2. QB A11 is under pressure in his end zone. He intentionally grounds a pass to avoid a loss of yardage. Clock reads 0:02 at the end of the down.

1. We don't have a free kick, but if something like that were to happen, like on a kick-off or a punt, score a touchdown for A.

2. Illegal participation A88. There is no DPI as A88 is not an eligible receiver. So, 10 against A. Roughing the passer is 15 against B. Therefore, A-1D/10 @ B-50.

3. Rouge. 1 point A. B scrimmage from their 35.

4. Touchdown.

5. B's option to score two points and go with our safety options, or decline the IG and accept the play as an incomplete pass, and therefore scrimmage 1D/G @ A-2.

Those were fun!

[wwcfoa43]

Originally posted by JugglingReferee

2. Illegal participation A88. There is no DPI as A88 is not an eligible receiver. So, 10 against A. Roughing the passer is 15 against B. Therefore, A-1D/10 @ B-50.

3. Rouge. 1 point A. B scrimmage from their 35.

[/B]

Comment and correction:

2. I am not sure that running OOB makes a receiver ineligible. When he goes OOB he has comitted a foul and if he catches it he may not get to keep his catch. However, you could say the same thing for him leaving the LOS early. So my opinion would be to go with a dual foul for IP and DPI plus the UR.

3. I think you missed the fact that A recovered in the end zone. So if A89 is onside then it is TD for A. If A89 is offside then we have no yards and so no point and give the ball to B on the B-35.