Wed Mar 09, 2005, 12:42pm
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Official Forum Member
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Alton, Iowa
Posts: 1,796
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Quote:
Originally posted by mikesears
Quote:
Originally posted by MJT
Quote:
Originally posted by mikesears
I'm with Bob M on this one.
In my opinion the more specific rule that deals with our situation is the 2nd rule BECAUSE it involves R touching a scrimmage kick beyond the ENZ. That act will give the TEAM in possession of the ball a new series when the down ends. Team possession did not change during the down. An incomplete forward pass does not change team possession. Team A still has team possession.
Let's remove the incomplete pass totally from the equation. What would the ruling be? Which rule takes precedence?
[Edited by mikesears on Mar 9th, 2005 at 10:59 AM]
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We cannot remover the incomplete pass, cuz that is the hitch to the whole problem.
On an incomplete forward pass on 4th down, team possession does change if there are no penalties, which there were not. Now 5-2-b says you also must consider the effect of any act during the down, which R's touching is probably what determines that we will have a first down for A. I initially said the same, saw some fog with the "4th down incomplete pass" so thought I'd throw out my idea, and defend it to see how far it may get. I was fully aware I would be dispelled, and come back to my original, and safer thought. Just wanted to get the juices flowing and the rule books opened. GOOD DISCUSSION!
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I agree that the discussion is good. I appreciate the question because it does make us get into the book. It really makes us all work on understanding definitions and rules.
The reason I recommended removing the incomplete pass from the equation is that we would have Team A in possession of the ball behind the line to gain.
Here is the play without that. 4/10 from the A-20. A1 punts the ball high and short. B1 attempts to catch the punt the at the A-28 and muffs the ball. A2 recovers the muffed punt at the A-18 and advances to the A-22.
Whose ball is it? If we want to argue that A is in possession of the ball behind the line to gain, it would be B's ball. But no rules knowledgable official would make that ruling because of the rule regarding B touching a scrimmage kick beyond the ENZ.
I don't see how adding an ADDITIONAL act of an imcomplete pass changes this. Still had a scrimmage kick that B touched beyond the ENZ.
Am I making sense in what I am trying to hilight here?
(even though B touched a scrimmage kick). Is A awarded a new series? Of course, because of the rule regarding giving a new series to the team in possession after a scrimmage kick if B touches the ball beyond the ENZ.
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I totally agree with all you have said. Your above play is an easy one for knowlegdable rules people, it would be 1-10 for A at A's 22. I just thought the ADDITIONAL ACT may complicate things a bit, and thought I'd throw it out there. Like I said, I was pretty certain of the answer, just wanted to fog it up and see how it eventually cleared.
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