Blown Call

[jimbulger1]

The biggest thing Rut is right about is in this situation
the call is a judgement call so you have to trust each others judgement. I think he made a good analogy to the DPI that has to be vaived off when the ball is tipped. I have had it happen on more than one occasion where (6man) in doing what i am supposed to i never see the passes origin and i might throw the flag but U comes runing in saying NO IT WAS TIPPED. I eat that one because its U's job to see the Tip. Mine to see the contact. My back judge (im a field judge) never comes to me if i throw a dpi and says....he played the ball pick it up.... we may talk about it later so we understand how each other work and look at things. Here is a good example

on friday we had a long pass down the middle and i saw b stick his foot out purposely to cause a to fall and not cath a pass. the foot he stuck out was the one on my side so the BJ didnt see it

I flagged it instantly he didnt. He just went and covered my flag and I went in and reported it WH called it and it was marched off

at halftime BJ asked me why I threw the flag I explained what i saw and he said good call I was so busy watching his hands I just assumed he got his leg tangled up.

HE OBVIOUSLY DIDN'T THINK IT WAS DPI....BUt he waited until the right time to talk because it was MY JUDGEMENT and not a mis app of the rules.

I think thats what was had in this instance and what rut was tring to tell you

We work as the same crew all year and our rules are simple
(we go over them in pregame)

1) call what you see
2) if you think you have something, you dont
3) never qusetion your or any other crewmembers judgement
4) If you tink a rule or enforcement is being misapplied speak up
5) sell every call even the obvious
and lastly (said when we converge at the 50 after the cointoss) DONT F$#CK UP

[Texoma_LJ]

I can appreciate that perspective. The key word in all of that was "crew" we are and need to be a team. Judgement is just that, hopefully we all get them right all the time. All the more reason live by the saying... If you "think" its a foul, its not.
The dialogue here is never meant to be demeaning, I think only enlightening, personal is personal, and professional is professional. One must be able to seperate the two.

[bjudge]

Ok, not to belabor this any further, but here is my question. If two officials are in position to make the call and one official throws a flag and the other one doesn't, why should the one official that throws the flag automatically overrule the official that didnt throw his flag. Both officials made a call, whether it is right or wrong. Why should the penalty be marked off without any further communication between the two officials, or at least with the R?

Some of the comments I have read seem to indicate that the person with the flag is the one that made the call. However, are we ignoring the fact that the other official made a call as well and that sometimes a good no call, is the right call?

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by bjudge
Ok, not to belabor this any further, but here is my question. If two officials are in position to make the call and one official throws a flag and the other one doesn't, why should the one official that throws the flag automatically overrule the official that didnt throw his flag.

I do not think you get it. You probably never will.

Originally posted by bjudge
Both officials made a call, whether it is right or wrong. Why should the penalty be marked off without any further communication between the two officials, or at least with the R?

The White hat has nothing to do with the call other than reporting it (at least in this example). Why is the Referee going to take your word over the official that made a call? "I saw something different." You would have to do better than that.

Originally posted by bjudge
Some of the comments I have read seem to indicate that the person with the flag is the one that made the call. However, are we ignoring the fact that the other official made a call as well and that sometimes a good no call, is the right call?

No one is ignoring anything. What you keep missing is that your opinion about a call is no more valuable than your partner's. If you constantly have a different opinion then your partner, are we going to have a conference on every call or play? Are we going to have to debate every decision? So you had a different angle, guess what you will always have a different angle than your partner. It is very possible you might even disagree with your partner from time to time. A good Referee is not going to take your word just based on judgment. You have conferences to get rule applications right and make sure you enforce a penalty properly, not for who agrees that the call was right. I am sure if we ask the calling official, he would think you were wrong. So what have we accomplished? We have two different officials that saw the same play differently? You said it was obvious, but the coaches chewed out the kid for committing the foul. Interesting, I have done many games where the coaches disagree with me rather than just chew on the kid. It must not have been obvious to everyone.

I said this before. We are going to make mistakes. When you have a perfect game it will be time to hang up the whistle. I have never had one, I am sure you will never have one. I have yet to see one. There are always calls that could be up for debate. Ask guys in the NFL or D1, they get downgrades for calls all the time. Maybe if you see it on tape, you might change your mind. Maybe if he sees it on tape he will agree with you? Or maybe not? But this is just my opinion. I am sure you know better than I do, considering you have all but 2 years of varsity experience. I think the rest of us should just listen to you and throw out all the normal practices because you see it differently.

Peace

[Blue37]

Originally posted by bjudge
Ok, not to belabor this any further, but here is my question. If two officials are in position to make the call and one official throws a flag and the other one doesn't, why should the one official that throws the flag automatically overrule the official that didnt throw his flag. Both officials made a call, whether it is right or wrong. Why should the penalty be marked off without any further communication between the two officials, or at least with the R?

Some of the comments I have read seem to indicate that the person with the flag is the one that made the call. However, are we ignoring the fact that the other official made a call as well and that sometimes a good no call, is the right call?

EXCELLENT POINT!!! Much is said in Basketball and Baseball about being as still as possible while watching the action. Your eyes cannot focus as well when your head is moving as they can when it is stationary. In football, however, most calls in a four or five man crew are made while on the run. Due to the bouncing of the head, your eyes can deceive you.

There are two camps on this issue. One believes mistakes are not correctable, and the other believes it is important to get it correct. Watch a few games on Sunday you will see the officials huddle several times. Do you think they are in there saying "Bill you missed that one, but we will have to live with it because you threw your flag."? No! They are in there telling Bill what they saw and they are moving toward a decision on what should be called.

[mcrowder]

Rut - up until this last post, most of what you said has been constructive. This last one was uncalled for. He as much as admitted he didn't "get" it, and was asking for input - so instead you berate him. Totally unnecessary. He sounds like a new guy who wants to learn. Don't you want people like this in your association? Besides - he had a good question ... one I asked when I was new.

bjudge - there are a number of reasons why, when one official makes the judgement call to throw a flag, and another makes the judgement call to NOT throw a flag, on the same play, you tend to favor the one that threw the flag.

First and foremost is that with so much to look for, if one official sees what he considers a foul, and another doesn't, it is not necessarily that one decision was better than another. It is likely that the foul was only observable from one angle, and in most cases like this, there WAS a foul. (In the case that began this post, it is entirely possible that the new guy made a mistake, but it's equally possible that he had a better (or simply different) angle than you --- but even if he made a mistake, in the long run you are better off living with the mistake and using it to teach or learn).

Another secondary reason is that for the credibility of the crew, it looks bad to be continually waving off flags. Also, if a new official starts having his flags "overruled", he is likely to eventually become flag-shy, and a worse official. A far better way to handle things has been mentioned repeatedly above - communicate.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: Since "experience" has been made the criteria by which some seem to judge the validity of posts on this board, I'll offer my own opinion. The issue here really isn't who was right and who was wrong. The real issue is that the crew didn't appear to have the stomach for coming together and to discuss two officials' views of what occurred. And yes--the B (the poster) who passed on the call because he saw it as a block from the side made a call just as surely as the wingman who dropped the flag. They were obligated to come together to get it right. The wing made a mistake in allowing his ego to overrule his responsibility to the game, and the R erred in placing more emphasis on taking the easy way out. Should they have met to "get it right?" Absolutely. All levels of officiating have that as their underlying principle. So what happens if they do come together and still disagree on whether or not a flag was deserved? Ed Hochuli (he has more experience than all of us) says that in such a case, it's up to the R to make a decision. He says that the determining factor for him is which official had the better view of the play (distance and angle) and go with his call.

[Patsfan2431]

Originally posted by Bob M.
REPLY: Since "experience" has been made the criteria by which some seem to judge the validity of posts on this board, I'll offer my own opinion. The issue here really isn't who was right and who was wrong. The real issue is that the crew didn't appear to have the stomach for coming together and to discuss two officials' views of what occurred. And yes--the B (the poster) who passed on the call because he saw it as a block from the side made a call just as surely as the wingman who dropped the flag. They were obligated to come together to get it right. The wing made a mistake in allowing his ego to overrule his responsibility to the game, and the R erred in placing more emphasis on taking the easy way out. Should they have met to "get it right?" Absolutely. All levels of officiating have that as their underlying principle. So what happens if they do come together and still disagree on whether or not a flag was deserved? Ed Hochuli (he has more experience than all of us) says that in such a case, it's up to the R to make a decision. He says that the determining factor for him is which official had the better view of the play (distance and angle) and go with his call.

Thanks Bob, You clearly made my point of communication is key. JRut, thanks for your input, because without it, i didn't see it from the other side. Although, i still believe communication, from all officials involved in the enforcement is key to "Getting it right". I know the phrase is not printed or published in any official publication, but thats my motto, and thats what our job is.

[Dommer1]

Rut on "getting it right":

"I have heard this all the time. Where does it say that? Can you give me a mechanics book, a rulebook or any publication that the rules committee signs off on that agrees with that statement?"

Rut, could you please clarify this statement. Are you saying that getting it right is less important than appearing to be right? Or am I misinterpreting you?

In this situation I would meet up with the calling official by the R (as running towards him before he reports it telegraphs to everyone that you don't agree), and in a calm manner (with an absolute minimum of body language) say something like: "Jim, you sure he hit him in the back? From my angle, it looked like the initial contact was from the side". If Jim says, "no, I got a good look, that's a definite foul", then I'm done. If he feels unsure, and is "big" enough to admit that he might not have had the best look, he can indicate that, and we can arrive at a conclusion together.

An official who thinks all his calls are always correct, and does not accept input from someone else on the crew, is someone I don't want to work with.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by mcrowder
Rut - up until this last post, most of what you said has been constructive. This last one was uncalled for. He as much as admitted he didn't "get" it, and was asking for input - so instead you berate him. Totally unnecessary. He sounds like a new guy who wants to learn. Don't you want people like this in your association? Besides - he had a good question ... one I asked when I was new.

I disagree. There are a lot of new guys that want to learn, they do not keep telling everyone that their opinion is better than everyone else. There is a newer official in my association that has every self representing official running the other way when they have to work with him at the Pee Wee level. Why, because he thinks he knows more than everyone that has more experience than he does and constantly tells people what he feels is best. If you do not like that, I guess you will just have to be upset. I stand by my comments and my feelings about this.

NO ONE OFFICIALS IS BIGGER THAN THE CREW!!! I do not care what anyone says, we are a team on the field. And just because you have a different view, does not make your judgment automatically any better than you fellow official working the game. Discuss it at halftime. Discuss it after the game. Discuss it during the tape review. But to think you are going to have a debate on the field about your “opinion” is ridiculous. Officials like that would not be working very long in my parts and I know in many parts.

Peace

[Dommer1]

Quote: "NO ONE OFFICIALS IS BIGGER THAN THE CREW!!! I do not care what anyone says, we are a team on the field. And just because you have a different view, does not make your judgment automatically any better than you fellow official working the game." End quote.

Rut, you do realize that I could use the exact same arguments for "my side" of this?

Regarding rookies who think they know it all, I think that's another debate. I agree this is sometimes a problem.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Dommer1
Rut on "getting it right":

"I have heard this all the time. Where does it say that? Can you give me a mechanics book, a rulebook or any publication that the rules committee signs off on that agrees with that statement?"

Rut, could you please clarify this statement. Are you saying that getting it right is less important than appearing to be right? Or am I misinterpreting you?

I really do not understand what you are misinterpreting, because I do not believe in the blanket statement, "get it right." Are we out there to get it wrong? If I make a call do I think I got it wrong? Am I not using judgment to make a call?

I know I work out to stay in shape. I study a lot of the rulebook and the mechanics books. I attend association meetings. I attend clinics all in the effort of getting the calls that I have to make right. Does that mean I will get them all right? Of course not. When I make a judgment call, I do not want someone that had a different angle, might not have seen the same thing I did, telling me we need to discuss that call. If we do that once, when does it stop? I do not see them doing it in the NFL? I do not see basketball officials telling a calling official that foul they just called was not a foul? I do not see a baseball umpire in the field come in and tell they plate umpire that the pitch he called a ball was a strike.

Originally posted by Dommer1
In this situation I would meet up with the calling official by the R (as running towards him before he reports it telegraphs to everyone that you don't agree), and in a calm manner (with an absolute minimum of body language) say something like: "Jim, you sure he hit him in the back? From my angle, it looked like the initial contact was from the side". If Jim says, "no, I got a good look, that's a definite foul", then I'm done. If he feels unsure, and is "big" enough to admit that he might not have had the best look, he can indicate that, and we can arrive at a conclusion together.

This is not what he did. At least in his example, he goes to the Referee who does not see the play at all (at least from the story) and tries to appeal to him. It is too late at that point. He needs to convince the official that threw the flag, not the person reporting it.

Originally posted by Dommer1
An official who thinks all his calls are always correct, and does not accept input from someone else on the crew, is someone I don't want to work with.

I do not want to work with officials that cannot trust their partners. There are always situations and circumstances where help or discussion is necessary, but this is not one of them. We cannot change calls based on opinions. If that is the case we could discuss every call made. Sometimes we are just going to have to live with our partner's calls. If they are not doing the job, then have them replaced. But most of the time you are not going to know that on the field, you will figure it out when the tape comes back or the assignor or evaluator makes a determination. I cannot stand working with people that cannot follow proper procedure.

Peace

[Bob M.]

REPLY: The important thing to realize in this situation is that each official made a judgement in the play. The fact that the wing's judgment resulted in putting a rag on the ground should be given no more weight than that of B whose judgment said there was no foul. Each judgment has equal validity until a determination is made as to whose call should stand. And that determination cannot wait until halftime or after the game. It must be discussed in the moment. After the game is a good time to discuss why there might have been a disagreement (positioning, angle, seeing part of the play, etc.) but you must resolve the disagreement in the context of the game at that time. The wing's refusal to hear any dissent and the R's avoidance of dealing with legitimate disagreement both were shining examples of making themselves "bigger than the crew."

A question for bjudge: Is this a crew that regularly works together or was it just a group of independent officials who were put together for that game? The answer to that question is paramount to understanding why the correct dynamics were not in evidence. It's a question of trust.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Dommer1
Quote: "NO ONE OFFICIALS IS BIGGER THAN THE CREW!!! I do not care what anyone says, we are a team on the field. And just because you have a different view, does not make your judgment automatically any better than you fellow official working the game." End quote.

Rut, you do realize that I could use the exact same arguments for "my side" of this?

Regarding rookies who think they know it all, I think that's another debate. I agree this is sometimes a problem.

How am I saying that I or anyone with my opinion on this is bigger than the crew? I am saying to trust your partner and their decisions. Understand we are hearing one side of this story. He has not in detail told us how the foul could not be in the back? Was the initial contact in the back with the left hand or right hand? Which side was the head on? All I am hearing it was SO OBVIOUS that there was not a foul, the coach yelled at the player instead of the official that made the call.

Do we think that the calling official might have a different take or different opinion on what the call was?

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Bob M.
REPLY: The important thing to realize in this situation is that each official made a judgement in the play. The fact that the wing's judgment resulted in putting a rag on the ground should be given no more weight than that of B whose judgment said there was no foul. Each judgment has equal validity until a determination is made as to whose call should stand. And that determination cannot wait until halftime or after the game. It must be discussed in the moment. After the game is a good time to discuss why there might have been a disagreement (positioning, angle, seeing part of the play, etc.) but you must resolve the disagreement in the context of the game at that time. The wing's refusal to hear any dissent and the R's avoidance of dealing with legitimate disagreement both were shining examples of making themselves "bigger than the crew."

Well if the NFL and D1 Conferences have meetings for hours before their games to discuss why the evaluators downgraded them for calls and no calls, I think we can discuss plays after the fact just like them. All I am hearing is the word "disagreement." I am not hearing anything about whose opinion are we going to agree with? I just have an official disagree and if they both are sure of their call, what next? Folks have even said that if the calling official is "unsure" then we might go with the non-calling official. But that did not happen here. We do not know how sure he was. The disagreement was never discussed with him from what I am reading.

Peace