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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sun Nov 16, 2003, 09:23pm
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Thought I would share this story from this season. It occurred in a game using Canadian high school rules so do not get too excited if it does not make sense from your perspective.

Team RED on the 3 yard line about to score against team BLUE when time runs out in the first half. In Canada when time runs out after a play has ended you get to run one more play. So with not time on the clock:

1. RED runs up the middle but does not score. BLUE is called for offside on the play. So we go half the distance and allow another play.
2. RED runs again and scores.
3. On the convert, RED's kick is good but RED has too many players (13 instead of the allowed 12). In Canada, the defense may force the offense to retry the convert AND put the yardage on the kick-off. In this case they chose to create a kick-off since the half cannot end if they choose this route.
4. On the repeated convert, RED's kick is good.
5. On the kick-off, RED kicks the ball 8 yards and then falls on it. Our ruling is to award the ball to BLUE at the point of possession and have one more play.
6. BLUE scrimmages and throws a pass that is incomplete but RED is called for pass interference. 15 yard penalty from last scrimmage and allow one more play.
7. BLUE tries a field goal which is unsuccessful but RED wipes out the BLUE kicker. 15 yard penalty from last scrimmage and allow one more play.
8. BLUE kicks a successful field goal without any flags.

So 8 plays, 10 points, all with no time on the clock!
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Old Mon Nov 17, 2003, 12:03pm
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3 - either the rule sounds wrong or the enforcement sounds wrong. Can you quote your rule that allows an extra play to be run instead of just a replay of a down that was interrupted by penalty? Adding the kickoff seems very odd.

5 - Illegal touching (here) would not allow another play - can you quote that rule for us too?
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Old Mon Nov 17, 2003, 01:45pm
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He's not using NFHS or NCAA. He's talkin Canadian style
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Old Mon Nov 17, 2003, 01:55pm
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Yeah, I know - that's why I want to see those specific rules. It's counterintuitive to the point of allowing another play due to a penalty in those two cases, so I wanted to see how their rules were worded.
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Old Mon Nov 17, 2003, 02:25pm
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For 3., our Rule 1-5-6 states "If in any period, time expires during a play in which a foul occurs, the non-offending team has the option to accept the penalty, in which case the team entitled to possession shall be required to put the ball into play and the period extended for that play."

In addition, 3-2-5 states, "..any penalty on a convert...infraction by Team A [converting team] Team B option on a successful attempt:
- disallow score. Apply penalty PLS. Repeat convert.
- diallow score. Repeat convert. Apply penalty on Kick-off.
- Allow score. Apply penalty on Kick-off.

Putting these two together means you could extend a period by the kick-off.

For 5., our Rule 5-2-3a states, "The ball must be kicked at least 10 yards towards the opponent's goal unless it is first touched by an opponent. Penalty:... 2. For recovering the ball illegally...B option:
- L5 kick-off repeated
- B possession as 1D at point of possession by A.
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Old Mon Nov 17, 2003, 04:49pm
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First let me state that I am absolutely not an expert on Canadian rules specifically. However, the wording on these rules is similar to NCAA. I have a couple of comments that may be completely wrong - but the rules stated (assuming there are no other rules that apply) don't seem to support the actions that happened as described...

On 3 - given the 3 options by the team accepting the penalty, it seems to me that "Disallow score, repeat convert, apply penalty on kickoff" does NOT specifically tell you to extend a period if the period was over already. Repeating the conversion seems to be enough to fulfill the extension of play required by your rule 1-5-6. (It MIGHT lend itself to allowing for the penalty to be enforced on the first play of the succeeding period - maybe.) The option to "allow score, apply penalty on kickoff" seems odd, but may lend itself to extending the period to force another kickoff.

On 5, it sounds to me (a confessed non-expert here) that B's option to rekick would be "accepting" the penalty, and a rekick would be required in this situation. But the 2nd part - B's possession as first down at point of possession by A sounds like DECLINING the penalty, and doesn't sound like it would require yet another play according to your rule as stated.

Any other Canadian experts out there that can either set me straight on this or at least clear up the water?
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Old Mon Nov 17, 2003, 05:13pm
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I'm no expert on this either. I'm still a student of the rules of football and officiating and come here to learn but just wanted to throw in my piece...

My interpretation on reading Rule 1-5-6 as quoted above is that the rule is similar to the concept of "the half can't end on a defensive penalty" but expanded to be something more like "a QUARTER can't end on ANY penalty".

However, I can also understand mbcrowder's interpretation since the try is where time ran out and the foul occured then there should be one additional play (the re-try, I guess). Since time will have ALREADY run out before any subsequent plays begin, a strict reading of this rule would seem to not endorse further plays, regardless of the penalties.

(Aren't tries untimed? How would the clock run out? .....Forgive my ignorance.)

I have to disagree with mbcrowder's interpretation for situation number 5 though. It seems pretty clear from the rule quoted that the receiving team has the option to take possession of the ball without forcing a re-kick. Declining that penalty would give the kicking team (A) the ball, wouldn't it?

-Sean---
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Old Tue Nov 18, 2003, 12:26am
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SeanWest has it correct. In Canada, no quarter will end if a penalty is accepted (with a few exceptions). This means that if Team B chooses to assess the penalty on the kick-off then there must be a kick-off to assess it on.

Can your halves end on offensive penalties? For instance, if Team A scores a TD on the last play of the half but is called for holding do you take away the TD and allow the half to end? We would take away the TD but this would mean that Team A would have one more play.

The wording of 1-5-6 is not that great in making this situation clear but there is plenty of case book support for the idea of adding a kick-off when there is a penalty when time expires.

SeanWest is also correct on #5 in that declining the penalty would give the ball to the kicking team. In that case the half would end though.

I will have to get a copy of your NF rules to see some of the differences. I also referee Basketball and we in Canada use the NF rules for that sport so there we would be speaking the same language.

So my question then to you is how many extra "untimed" plays have you had in your experience? (Your rules clearly do not lend themselves to extensions like ours.)
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Old Tue Nov 18, 2003, 07:23am
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Talking

Funny thing: I was on that game with wwcfoa43!

I think I was responsible for 2 of the flags.

After the game, we were deciding who was respoinsible for buying the beer.
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