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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jul 20, 2020, 12:10pm
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Odd penalty sequence question

Heard about this from a friend. Don't know if its true, but am I correct in how it should have been handled by the officials.

Last 30 seconds of the game. Team A has the ball A49 yard line. 3rd and 20 (holding penalty on a previous play, plus a couple incompletions). During the play, A63 commits a holding penalty, while A82 commits a personal fould facemask. As the QB scrambles, he crosses the LOS by a couple yards before throwing a pass (from B48 yard line) which is complete deep into Team B territory, (illegal forward pass penalty is called). After the play, A88 taunts an opponent. When he is flagged for taunting he rips his helmet off and throws it to the bench as he walks off the field. B80 then taunts A88 as he is being walked off the field.

My understanding of this situation is we have three live ball fouls. Holding on A63, PF Facemask on A82, and an illegal forward pass. The defense has the option of which of these penalties to accept (they chose the IFP, with its loss of down). After those penalties are enforced, the two unsportsmanlike conduct penalties are accessed against A88, which results in his disqualifiation from the game. B80 is also accessed an unsportsmanlike and is disqualified (state rules, taunting equals disqualification). The officials then mark off the penalty yardage (5 yards?) from the sport of the IFP, plus 15 yards for the unsportsmanlike conduct which was not offset. Thus following this mess we should have 4th down and forever at A's 32 yard line correct?

My friend told me the officials ruled everything offset on the play and they replayed the down from the A49 yard line. He didn't think it was right, and I'm sure he is correct, but I'm not positive my penalties are right.

This was a JV game last fall between two schools who have a history of bad blood between them and questionable ethics within their coaching staffs.

Last edited by chapmaja; Tue Jul 21, 2020 at 05:29pm.
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Old Mon Jul 20, 2020, 02:09pm
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5 yards from the spot of the pass, LOD. All the dead ball stuff is handled after that.

If the crew offset everything, they're wrong. There is no live ball B foul to offset the live ball A fouls.


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Old Tue Jul 21, 2020, 08:55am
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My only question would be whether time expired for the game. Since you described a long live ball sequence as occurring "last 30 seconds", I could imagine its having consumed it all.

Assuming no touchdown was scored, team B could then decline the penalties and the dead ball fouls never officially occurred, because the game was over. If a touchdown did occur, team B could accept the penalty for illegal forward pass, and with the loss of down the game would still be over, and still no dead ball fouls. If the league they're in wants to assess additional outside-the-game penalties (suspension, no cookies, whatever) for the players' behavior afterward, that's on them.

Last edited by Robert Goodman; Tue Jul 21, 2020 at 08:59am.
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Old Tue Jul 21, 2020, 05:28pm
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Originally Posted by Robert Goodman View Post
My only question would be whether time expired for the game. Since you described a long live ball sequence as occurring "last 30 seconds", I could imagine its having consumed it all.

Assuming no touchdown was scored, team B could then decline the penalties and the dead ball fouls never officially occurred, because the game was over. If a touchdown did occur, team B could accept the penalty for illegal forward pass, and with the loss of down the game would still be over, and still no dead ball fouls. If the league they're in wants to assess additional outside-the-game penalties (suspension, no cookies, whatever) for the players' behavior afterward, that's on them.
Good point, no, the game did not end on that play.
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Old Thu Jul 23, 2020, 07:30pm
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I agree with the OPís outcome. 2 of the 3 DB fouls offset, leaving one to be assessed against A.
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Old Sun Jul 26, 2020, 05:00pm
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I've heard tell of places that would want just one penalty to be assessed against A88 (though that one would be an ejection). That would result in one UNS to each side and no distance for them. I'm not entirely sure how I like it by itself, but it seems a better fit when there's an automatic DQ for taunting by state choice.


Also don't think that ruling the fouls never officially occurred is the right way to handle it happening if we have them on a down where time expires with a loss of down. They won't be enforced due to the loss of down, but are part of the game and need to be reported to the state. And I'm definitely doing that in a game like this.

My hypothetical miked up spiel for all 6 fouls where time expired might be something like this...

"There are multiple fouls on the play. Holding, offense, that penalty is declined. Personal foul, facemask, offense, that penalty is declined. Illegal forward pass, offense, five yard penalty from the spot of the foul, loss of down. After the play, unsportsmanlike conduct, offense, the player is disqualified. Unsportsmanlike conduct, defense, the player is disqualified. Those penalties offset. Unsportsmanlike conduct, offense. As time expired during the play, we will not repeat the down due to the loss of down foul. Ball game."

... I'm not sure there's ever a good way to report six fouls.
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Old Mon Jul 27, 2020, 07:13am
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Originally Posted by OkieZebra View Post
Also don't think that ruling the fouls never officially occurred is the right way to handle it happening if we have them on a down where time expires with a loss of down. They won't be enforced due to the loss of down, but are part of the game and need to be reported to the state. And I'm definitely doing that in a game like this.
But don't you see a difference between "on a down" and "after a down"? If time expired and the down had already ended, then subsequent actions are not part of the game.
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Old Mon Jul 27, 2020, 06:42pm
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The fouls officially occurred and yes, are part of the game. Ejections are to be reported in most states for sometimes further administrative penalties. Per NFHS rule change a few years back, our jurisdiction extends to the filing of any necessary reports. It is certainly still in effect while we are sorting out penalty administration.
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Old Mon Jul 27, 2020, 08:15pm
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Originally Posted by HLin NC View Post
The fouls officially occurred and yes, are part of the game.
Under the conditions Okiezebra stated, how so?
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Old Tue Jul 28, 2020, 04:42pm
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Its all been explained. If you don't understand then there isn't much more that can be done.
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Old Tue Jul 28, 2020, 05:11pm
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Originally Posted by HLin NC View Post
Its all been explained. If you don't understand then there isn't much more that can be done.
Something can be done. You can put together the exact statements you mean apply to the exact facts.

So what if your "jurisdiction" extends until midnight? You're a game official, so you can't administer penalties that are not part of the game. You can be a witness for any number of actions, but actions that occur after the game ends are not part of the game.

And yes, that makes a difference. The actions that occurred after the game should be judged by the same standards as if any other students from either of those schools walked into the playing area and did them, not by the standards you would apply to players, substitutes, and other participants.
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Old Tue Jul 28, 2020, 11:14pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Goodman View Post
Something can be done. You can put together the exact statements you mean apply to the exact facts.



So what if your "jurisdiction" extends until midnight? You're a game official, so you can't administer penalties that are not part of the game. You can be a witness for any number of actions, but actions that occur after the game ends are not part of the game.



And yes, that makes a difference. The actions that occurred after the game should be judged by the same standards as if any other students from either of those schools walked into the playing area and did them, not by the standards you would apply to players, substitutes, and other participants.

You can eject team members and/or coaches, which carry subsequent administrative penalties.


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Old Wed Jul 29, 2020, 10:41am
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And you can stop being purposely obtuse.
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Old Wed Jul 29, 2020, 12:35pm
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Originally Posted by Rich View Post
You can eject team members and/or coaches, which carry subsequent administrative penalties.
You can't eject them from the game. The game is history. Fed rules say:
Quote:
The game officials maintain administrative responsibilities for the contest through the completion of any required reports or correspondence in response to any action occurring while the officials have jurisdiction. State Associations may intercede in the event of unusual incidents after the officials have signaled the end of the game
All the rules about unsportsmanlike conduct refer to the actions of players and certain categories of nonplayers during games. After the game, there's no such thing as unsportsmanlike conduct, only "unusual incidents". An action which would be unsportsmanlike conduct may or may not be an "unusual incident" after a game, and vice versa.
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Old Wed Jul 29, 2020, 12:37pm
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Originally Posted by Robert Goodman View Post
You can't eject them from the game. The game is history. Fed rules say:

All the rules about unsportsmanlike conduct refer to the actions of players and certain categories of nonplayers during games. After the game, there's no such thing as unsportsmanlike conduct, only "unusual incidents". An action which would be unsportsmanlike conduct may or may not be an "unusual incident" after a game, and vice versa.


Trust me when I say that state associations are not going to try to split that infinitive. A post-game ejection will carry the same penalties.



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