Odd penalty sequence question

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Something can be done. You can put together the exact statements you mean apply to the exact facts.

So what if your "jurisdiction" extends until midnight? You're a game official, so you can't administer penalties that are not part of the game. You can be a witness for any number of actions, but actions that occur after the game ends are not part of the game.

And yes, that makes a difference. The actions that occurred after the game should be judged by the same standards as if any other students from either of those schools walked into the playing area and did them, not by the standards you would apply to players, substitutes, and other participants.

I can tell you that effective in 2019, you can (and should) eject someone if the circumstances warrant that ejection up until the point you leave the property at which the contest is conduct (yes, this means if a coach does something like flipping you the bird as you are in the turn lane pulling out of the school parking lot, you are supposed to eject them. )

For those that don't think I am correct, this is the exact working from from the MHSAA's officials guidebook. Important parts in bold.

"When a student or coach commits an ejectable offense against an official following the conclusion of the contest, but before the
officials have left the facility and/or grounds, an official may disqualify the student or coach as though it had occurred during the
contest.

NOTE: This does not apply to situations where an official from an earlier contest remains at the facility as a spectator of a later"

In the assigners meeting last year, it was made very clear what the definition of facility / grounds was, the school or facility property of the contest location, including the parking lot.

With that said, to my knowledge no ejections were issued for incidents outside the actually playing facility. Personally, the only way I would be issuing an ejection in the parking lot is if it rose the the level of requiring me to contact facility security or law enforcement for my own protection or the protection of my officiating crew.


contest.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by OkieZebra

I've heard tell of places that would want just one penalty to be assessed against A88 (though that one would be an ejection). That would result in one UNS to each side and no distance for them. I'm not entirely sure how I like it by itself, but it seems a better fit when there's an automatic DQ for taunting by state choice.


Also don't think that ruling the fouls never officially occurred is the right way to handle it happening if we have them on a down where time expires with a loss of down. They won't be enforced due to the loss of down, but are part of the game and need to be reported to the state. And I'm definitely doing that in a game like this.

My hypothetical miked up spiel for all 6 fouls where time expired might be something like this...

"There are multiple fouls on the play. Holding, offense, that penalty is declined. Personal foul, facemask, offense, that penalty is declined. Illegal forward pass, offense, five yard penalty from the spot of the foul, loss of down. After the play, unsportsmanlike conduct, offense, the player is disqualified. Unsportsmanlike conduct, defense, the player is disqualified. Those penalties offset. Unsportsmanlike conduct, offense. As time expired during the play, we will not repeat the down due to the loss of down foul. Ball game."

... I'm not sure there's ever a good way to report six fouls.

I have heard the same argument regarding unsportsmanlike acts against players both in football and in basketball. (Had the argument about how many technical fouls can be accessed to a player for unsportsmanlike conduct.).

My general line of thinking is if it is a single act, such as yelling and screaming at an official, that gets you one unsportsmanlike conduct call. I will give you a reasonable amount of time to make your point, and if you stop, we remain at one. (usually about 30 seconds provided profanity isn't used, and depending on the age level of the contests, high school stuff much less forgiveness than adult rec sports). I will attempt to end the conversation, but if they continue beyond the end point, a second unsportsmanlike is issued.

If the actions that earn the unsportsmanlike conduct are different, each gets penalized. For example, if a basketball player screams a profanity at a referee, he gets T'ed up. If he then rips his jersey off, he has earned a second T, and his trip out of the facility (adult league). If he then does something like throw a chair from the team bench onto the court or throws the basketball at the back of the official, he has earned himself a third T. With adult league games I have no problem giving additional unsportsmanlike conduct sanctions because the team needs to get their AH (I mean player under control). For school sports, I will give the coaches time to get an athlete under control if at all possible before going beyond a second T.

Speaking of the number of penalties, I actually had an ejection overturned in a wRECk League game a couple years ago. I issued a flagrant technical foul (automatic ejection) for a player getting in my face and actually spitting on me. Since he was not issued two technical fouls, the league intially overturned the ejection, until I actually got the rulebook out and clearly defined a flagrant technical is an automatic ejection The other part of the story was he was actually detained for that incident. One of the "fans" at that game was an police officer. I was asked after the game if I wanted to press charges, but declined (he spit on my shoes). Now, given the pandemic, I likely would press charges.