Odd penalty sequence question

[Rich]

5 yards from the spot of the pass, LOD. All the dead ball stuff is handled after that.

If the crew offset everything, they're wrong. There is no live ball B foul to offset the live ball A fouls.


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[Robert Goodman]

My only question would be whether time expired for the game. Since you described a long live ball sequence as occurring "last 30 seconds", I could imagine its having consumed it all.

Assuming no touchdown was scored, team B could then decline the penalties and the dead ball fouls never officially occurred, because the game was over. If a touchdown did occur, team B could accept the penalty for illegal forward pass, and with the loss of down the game would still be over, and still no dead ball fouls. If the league they're in wants to assess additional outside-the-game penalties (suspension, no cookies, whatever) for the players' behavior afterward, that's on them.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

My only question would be whether time expired for the game. Since you described a long live ball sequence as occurring "last 30 seconds", I could imagine its having consumed it all.

Assuming no touchdown was scored, team B could then decline the penalties and the dead ball fouls never officially occurred, because the game was over. If a touchdown did occur, team B could accept the penalty for illegal forward pass, and with the loss of down the game would still be over, and still no dead ball fouls. If the league they're in wants to assess additional outside-the-game penalties (suspension, no cookies, whatever) for the players' behavior afterward, that's on them.

Good point, no, the game did not end on that play.

[CT1]

I agree with the OP’s outcome. 2 of the 3 DB fouls offset, leaving one to be assessed against A.

[OkieZebra]

I've heard tell of places that would want just one penalty to be assessed against A88 (though that one would be an ejection). That would result in one UNS to each side and no distance for them. I'm not entirely sure how I like it by itself, but it seems a better fit when there's an automatic DQ for taunting by state choice.


Also don't think that ruling the fouls never officially occurred is the right way to handle it happening if we have them on a down where time expires with a loss of down. They won't be enforced due to the loss of down, but are part of the game and need to be reported to the state. And I'm definitely doing that in a game like this.

My hypothetical miked up spiel for all 6 fouls where time expired might be something like this...

"There are multiple fouls on the play. Holding, offense, that penalty is declined. Personal foul, facemask, offense, that penalty is declined. Illegal forward pass, offense, five yard penalty from the spot of the foul, loss of down. After the play, unsportsmanlike conduct, offense, the player is disqualified. Unsportsmanlike conduct, defense, the player is disqualified. Those penalties offset. Unsportsmanlike conduct, offense. As time expired during the play, we will not repeat the down due to the loss of down foul. Ball game."

... I'm not sure there's ever a good way to report six fouls.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by OkieZebra

Also don't think that ruling the fouls never officially occurred is the right way to handle it happening if we have them on a down where time expires with a loss of down. They won't be enforced due to the loss of down, but are part of the game and need to be reported to the state. And I'm definitely doing that in a game like this.

But don't you see a difference between "on a down" and "after a down"? If time expired and the down had already ended, then subsequent actions are not part of the game.

[HLin NC]

The fouls officially occurred and yes, are part of the game. Ejections are to be reported in most states for sometimes further administrative penalties. Per NFHS rule change a few years back, our jurisdiction extends to the filing of any necessary reports. It is certainly still in effect while we are sorting out penalty administration.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by OkieZebra

I've heard tell of places that would want just one penalty to be assessed against A88 (though that one would be an ejection). That would result in one UNS to each side and no distance for them. I'm not entirely sure how I like it by itself, but it seems a better fit when there's an automatic DQ for taunting by state choice.


Also don't think that ruling the fouls never officially occurred is the right way to handle it happening if we have them on a down where time expires with a loss of down. They won't be enforced due to the loss of down, but are part of the game and need to be reported to the state. And I'm definitely doing that in a game like this.

My hypothetical miked up spiel for all 6 fouls where time expired might be something like this...

"There are multiple fouls on the play. Holding, offense, that penalty is declined. Personal foul, facemask, offense, that penalty is declined. Illegal forward pass, offense, five yard penalty from the spot of the foul, loss of down. After the play, unsportsmanlike conduct, offense, the player is disqualified. Unsportsmanlike conduct, defense, the player is disqualified. Those penalties offset. Unsportsmanlike conduct, offense. As time expired during the play, we will not repeat the down due to the loss of down foul. Ball game."

... I'm not sure there's ever a good way to report six fouls.

I have heard the same argument regarding unsportsmanlike acts against players both in football and in basketball. (Had the argument about how many technical fouls can be accessed to a player for unsportsmanlike conduct.).

My general line of thinking is if it is a single act, such as yelling and screaming at an official, that gets you one unsportsmanlike conduct call. I will give you a reasonable amount of time to make your point, and if you stop, we remain at one. (usually about 30 seconds provided profanity isn't used, and depending on the age level of the contests, high school stuff much less forgiveness than adult rec sports). I will attempt to end the conversation, but if they continue beyond the end point, a second unsportsmanlike is issued.

If the actions that earn the unsportsmanlike conduct are different, each gets penalized. For example, if a basketball player screams a profanity at a referee, he gets T'ed up. If he then rips his jersey off, he has earned a second T, and his trip out of the facility (adult league). If he then does something like throw a chair from the team bench onto the court or throws the basketball at the back of the official, he has earned himself a third T. With adult league games I have no problem giving additional unsportsmanlike conduct sanctions because the team needs to get their AH (I mean player under control). For school sports, I will give the coaches time to get an athlete under control if at all possible before going beyond a second T.

Speaking of the number of penalties, I actually had an ejection overturned in a wRECk League game a couple years ago. I issued a flagrant technical foul (automatic ejection) for a player getting in my face and actually spitting on me. Since he was not issued two technical fouls, the league intially overturned the ejection, until I actually got the rulebook out and clearly defined a flagrant technical is an automatic ejection The other part of the story was he was actually detained for that incident. One of the "fans" at that game was an police officer. I was asked after the game if I wanted to press charges, but declined (he spit on my shoes). Now, given the pandemic, I likely would press charges.