Methinks we can....

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

So sometimes it's been, let's work together while honoring our unique needs, while other times it's just been, we're better at this than you are.

Presuming for the moment (or at least hoping for) rule makers were more concerned with the objectives of and benefits football may provide at their specific level, than "we're better at this than you are", the differences are striking.

NFHS rules govern thousands of High Schools playing interscholastic sports, designed, in general, to provide physical outlets to growing, active CHILDREN and teach sportsmanship, teamwork, reliance on and responsibility to others and a wide variety of other necessary "Life" lessons. There is an enormous difference in available financial resources, facilities, size of participant pools, participation and community interest levels and the age and physical stature of interested participants, who may be in various stages of natural growth.

NCAA rules govern, generally, student activities at a physically, and usually emotionally and maturity, level of older participants at higher levels of skill, interest and experience within a similarly wide variety of levels broken down by financial capability, organizational objective and focus, resource allocation, facilities and expenditures, that add a variable level of recruiting, scholarships (worth considerable amounts of money requiring higher individual skill sets)) that often, at various internal levels, produce considerable revenues that help support and pay for additional organizational activities and expenses.

NFL rules govern a highly successful business venture, that provides enormous sums of money to extensive business enterprises that impact large population centers and financial interests, that enjoy virtually unlimited capabilities for facilities, venues, world wide advertising as well as participant career development and high level earning capacity. Players are those at the apex of skill sets, experience and ability and are usually extremely well paid for the services they are able to render.

The basic, and primary, objectives at each of these levels, although generally related are specifically and intentionally different and not surprisingly, have developed rule adjustments and differences designed to support their unique and specific objectives and perceived needs.

Is it reasonable to expect "one size would (should or ever could) fit all"?

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Is it reasonable to expect "one size would (should or ever could) fit all"?

No. Level specific differences are appropriate. Differences for the sake of being different are not and there are plenty of examples where this is true between NFHS and NCAA and the reason is due to NFHS specifically not desiring to be like NCAA.

Consistency between the NFHS and NCAA where practical is a good thing for the players, coaches and officials. I would say I don't see why that's such a difficult concept but I'd be lying.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Welpe

No. Level specific differences are appropriate. Differences for the sake of being different are not and there are plenty of examples where this is true between NFHS and NCAA and the reason is due to NFHS specifically not desiring to be like NCAA.

Consistency between the NFHS and NCAA where practical is a good thing for the players, coaches and officials. I would say I don't see why that's such a difficult concept but I'd be lying.

Those are the gratuitous differences I am talking about.

For example, requiring a holder to lift a knee before pitching the ball. Every year I hear of a team doing that and it being called in a HS game and I always wonder -- exactly why should that be different than what everyone sees on TV?

Why can I tackle a QB by the face mask in a HS game and benefit from it?

And so on. Gratuitous.

The committee met last weekend and I'm not expecting a lot of changes.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by Rich

Those are the gratuitous differences I am talking about.

For example, requiring a holder to lift a knee before pitching the ball. Every year I hear of a team doing that and it being called in a HS game and I always wonder -- exactly why should that be different than what everyone sees on TV?

Why can I tackle a QB by the face mask in a HS game and benefit from it?

The EXCEPTION to the rule that any player in possession of a live ball with other than a hand or foot on the ground is DEAD, allows a place kick holder to possess the ball while his knee is on the ground. The EXCEPTION is to allow the holder, to hold for a placekick.

If he's going to do something other than hold, he doesn't enjoy the exception and NFHS requires he rise, to take his knee off the ground.

Under the NFHS code a tackle involving grasping a facemask, applies to anyone grasping an opponent's face mask, which calls for a penalty enforcement from the spot of the foul. Applies to grasping a QB by the facemask whether the foul is committed behind, or in advance of the LOS, as it does for anyone else. How is either gratuitous?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by ajmc

The EXCEPTION to the rule that any player in possession of a live ball with other than a hand or foot on the ground is DEAD, allows a place kick holder to possess the ball while his knee is on the ground. The EXCEPTION is to allow the holder, to hold for a placekick.

If he's going to do something other than hold, he doesn't enjoy the exception and NFHS requires he rise, to take his knee off the ground.

Under the NFHS code a tackle involving grasping a facemask, applies to anyone grasping an opponent's face mask, which calls for a penalty enforcement from the spot of the foul. Applies to grasping a QB by the facemask whether the foul is committed behind, or in advance of the LOS, as it does for anyone else. How is either gratuitous?

It is not a spot foul. It's an all-but-one enforcement. The basic spot's the end of the run. If you're going to be stubborn, at least be accurate.

The only reason I tackle the QB is because I illegally grab his face mask. And I get the benefit of those yards. The only truly fair enforcement is going back to the previous spot and tacking on the 15 yards. Having exceptions for fouls committed behind the line of scrimmage for BOTH teams is consistent, BTW, and it's what the NCAA does.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich

It is not a spot foul. It's an all-but-one enforcement. The basic spot's the end of the run. If you're going to be stubborn, at least be accurate.

The only reason I tackle the QB is because I illegally grab his face mask. And I get the benefit of those yards. The only truly fair enforcement is going back to the previous spot and tacking on the 15 yards. Having exceptions for fouls committed behind the line of scrimmage for BOTH teams is consistent, BTW, and it's what the NCAA does.

Obviously the NF does not care what you or I think is fair. And that is not the point of why rules are different. NF does not like to make exceptions to their rules and the NCAA is full of them.

Remember these rules are not made for you or me, they are made for the masses to understand and the mass of officials that work that level. This entire argument that the NCAA does makes more sense is not accurate IMO. Officials will screw up those kinds of things as not everyone is that knowledgeable about he rules they have in front of them already. And a lot of officials never work college ball so it makes little difference to them what the NCAA might do in some specific situations.

Peace

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Obviously the NF does not care what you or I think is fair. And that is not the point of why rules are different. NF does not like to make exceptions to their rules and the NCAA is full of them.

The NFHS has plenty of exceptions as well. They just aren't called out as Exceptions. They are in line of the rule using words like "unless" or "except". We had a local official go through the rule book looking for these words and he found the number of "exceptions" in HS wasn't that much different than NCAA.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by Rich

It is not a spot foul. It's an all-but-one enforcement. The basic spot's the end of the run. If you're going to be stubborn, at least be accurate.

Accuracy, very much like "beauty" is, "often in the eye of the beholder". Presuming a QB, tackled by the face mask, is downed where the foul takes place, the spot of the foul IS the end of the run, so there really is no need to invoke an "All but one" adjustment.

When the defense has accomplished reaching the QB, or any runner behind the LOS without benefit of ANY illegal act, they are entitled to whatever yardage advantage they have legally attained.

Conversely, when the defense has legally forced the offense to retreat 10, or more yards, behind the LOS their is NO CONSEQUENCE to the offence choosing to foul, and in addition to the loss of yardage being the same, or less, (depending on the offensive foul selected) they gain, what some consider an UNFAIR advantage of replaying the down, when the penalty is accepted. In essence, the offense is ENCOURAGED to foul, as the penalty for doing so is negated by enforcing the penalty for fouling from the previous spot.

Much like "beauty", "stubbornness" is also, "often in the eye of the beholder.

[CT1]

Originally Posted by ajmc

When the defense has accomplished reaching the QB, or any runner behind the LOS without benefit of ANY illegal act, they are entitled to whatever yardage advantage they have legally attained.

"Reaching the QB" and "tackling the QB" are often two different animals.

Here's Rich's quote: "The only reason I tackle the QB is because I illegally grab his face mask. And I get the benefit of those yards." (emphasis added)

Do we know what would have happened had the illegal act not occurred? No. The offense might have made a significant gain. That's why the penalty administration in this case is considered a "gratuitous difference".

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Rich

Those are the gratuitous differences I am talking about.

For example, requiring a holder to lift a knee before pitching the ball. Every year I hear of a team doing that and it being called in a HS game and I always wonder -- exactly why should that be different than what everyone sees on TV?

I believe, though I'm not sure, that difference, like the one below, was a result of NCAA's change, Fed's inertia. Some years after adopting (early 1930s, before Fed had their own football rules) the provision that a knee down made the ball dead except when holding for a place kick, NCAA added language allowing the ballcarrier in such a position to "arise". Much later, NCAA looked at play situations & decided that wording was unnecessarily restrictive; situations of passing the ball while kneeling just hadn't occurred to them when they originally adopted the provision. They might not have been pushed into reconsidering until after some officials complained about having to make the call of whether the holder got his knee off the ground in time to pass.

Why can I tackle a QB by the face mask in a HS game and benefit from it?

That last difference resulted from a change by NCAA, Fed keeping the old rule. However, they could also say that with the number of people officiating under Fed rules, the need to keep administration of penalties simple is greater than it is for NCAA or NFL.