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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 28, 2016, 02:25am
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Originally Posted by ajmc View Post
ALL BUT ONE does NOT apply to defensive fouls,
Aren't they among the "all"?
  #32 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 28, 2016, 09:08am
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Originally Posted by ajmc View Post
Sorry, but I have no idea what you are trying to infer regarding, "gratuitous difference" and, to my understanding, NFHS does not consider, "things that might have been"(Thankfully)
Under NCAA rules, a foul by the defense behind the LOS is penalized from the previous spot, regardless of the type of play (running or loose ball).

In NFHS, if the QB is tackled by the facemask & goes to the ground, it's a running play & penalized from the end of the run. If he passes or fumbles, it's a loose ball play & is penalized from the previous spot.

There's no logical reason for such a difference -- therefore, it's "gratuitous".
  #33 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 28, 2016, 10:06am
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Originally Posted by CT1 View Post
There's no logical reason for such a difference -- therefore, it's "gratuitous".
Even though I find it hard to understand the logic of the NCAA version of handling such situations, I presume they had specific objectives, they may have honestly considered valid, for arbitrarily depriving the defensive effort of the advantage, they honestly achieved, by causing the offense to foul BEHIND where play began to lessen the impact of the consequences earned by, and applied against, the fouling offense.

NFHS prefers consistency in it's handling of penalty enforcement, by establishing "basic spots", which are determined by action that occurs immediately prior, actually during, and after the down, as well as non-player fouls.

"Gratuitous" seems largely a matter of personal perspective.
  #34 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 28, 2016, 10:11am
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Originally Posted by Robert Goodman View Post
Aren't they among the "all"?
You may very well be confused. It would seem "ALL, but one" is a concept directed towards, and relates exclusively to, Offensive fouls.
  #35 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 28, 2016, 10:33am
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Originally Posted by ajmc View Post
You may very well be confused. It would seem "ALL, but one" is a concept directed towards, and relates exclusively to, Offensive fouls.
Nope, you're the one who's confused.

All-but-one applies to ALL fouls. All fouls are enforced from the basic spot with the exception of the "one" - fouls committed behind the basic spot by the team with the ball at the time of the foul.
  #36 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 28, 2016, 11:04am
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Originally Posted by ajmc View Post
Even though I find it hard to understand the logic of the NCAA version of handling such situations, I presume they had specific objectives, they may have honestly considered valid, for arbitrarily depriving the defensive effort of the advantage, they honestly achieved, by causing the offense to foul BEHIND where play began to lessen the impact of the consequences earned by, and applied against, the fouling offense.
We're talking about a DEFENSIVE foul.
  #37 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 28, 2016, 04:47pm
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Originally Posted by Rich View Post
Nope, you're the one who's confused.

All-but-one applies to ALL fouls. All fouls are enforced from the basic spot with the exception of the "one" - fouls committed behind the basic spot by the team with the ball at the time of the foul.
When all else fails, Rich, read the rule book;":Football Penalty Enforcement, NFHS 10-6 (page 80, 2nd paragraph):

"Enforcement philosophy is based on the fact that a team is given the advantage of the distance which is gained without assistance of a foul. It is assumed that the only foul which would give this aid is a foul by the offense behind the basic spot. Therefore, all fouls but this one, that is a foul by the offense behind the basic spot are penalized from the basic spot unless the spot is otherwise specified by rule. This one foul is penalized from the spot of the foul."

This discussion started referencing a player (presumed to be an opponent/defensive player) tackling by the facemask. The concept of, "All-But-One" applies EXCLUSIVELY to Offensive fouls

Last edited by ajmc; Thu Jan 28, 2016 at 04:51pm.
  #38 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 28, 2016, 05:14pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajmc View Post
When all else fails, Rich, read the rule book;":Football Penalty Enforcement, NFHS 10-6 (page 80, 2nd paragraph):

"Enforcement philosophy is based on the fact that a team is given the advantage of the distance which is gained without assistance of a foul. It is assumed that the only foul which would give this aid is a foul by the offense behind the basic spot. Therefore, all fouls but this one, that is a foul by the offense behind the basic spot are penalized from the basic spot unless the spot is otherwise specified by rule. This one foul is penalized from the spot of the foul."

This discussion started referencing a player (presumed to be an opponent/defensive player) tackling by the facemask. The concept of, "All-But-One" applies EXCLUSIVELY to Offensive fouls
You have just posted the definition of all-but-one. The "ALL" is EVERY OTHER FOUL, both offense and defense.

The "BUT ONE" refers to offensive fouls behind the basic spot.
  #39 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 29, 2016, 11:09am
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Originally Posted by Rich View Post
You have just posted the definition of all-but-one. The "ALL" is EVERY OTHER FOUL, both offense and defense.

The "BUT ONE" refers to offensive fouls behind the basic spot.
I guess, sometimes even reading EXACTLY what the book says doesn't help. At any rate, this poor horse is so dead, it deserves to be left to RIP
  #40 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 29, 2016, 02:47pm
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Originally Posted by ajmc View Post
I guess, sometimes even reading EXACTLY what the book says doesn't help. At any rate, this poor horse is so dead, it deserves to be left to RIP

The book says exactly what Rich says that it does. All but one enforcement applies to all fouls. It's right there in the text you quoted.

But by all means, don't just actually admit you might be wrong, continue to bluster on about it for paragraphs.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 29, 2016, 04:09pm
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Originally Posted by Welpe View Post
The book says exactly what Rich says that it does. All but one enforcement applies to all fouls. It's right there in the text you quoted.

But by all means, don't just actually admit you might be wrong, continue to bluster on about it for paragraphs.
On a scale of 1 - 1 Billion, where would you rank the significance of your argument, maybe a 3?

The original question related to defensive fouls behind the LOS being enforced either from the spot of the foul (NFHS), or the previous spot (NCAA). If you can force yourself to be honest, there is NOTHING WHATSOEVER about "All-But-One" that relates to Defensive fouls, other than they DON'T APPLY.

This has nothing to do with "admitting anything wrong". If you want to argue the meaning of "ALL" (taken totally out of context) knock yourself out, but you'd be a lot more challenged by a language expert, or someone else who just might care, even a little bit.
  #42 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 29, 2016, 04:16pm
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Methinks we can....

I've never seen someone be wrong and double down the way you do.

I'm amazed actually. I've taught all-but-one many times and it's clear that the phrase has to do with basic spots and does apply to defensive fouls as well.

In college rules, it's referred to as 3-and-1. The 3 are offensive fouls beyond the basic spot, defensive fouls beyond the basic spot, and defensive fouls behind the basic spot. The one is offensive fouls behind the basic spot. The 3 have basic spot enforcement. The 1 is enforced from the spot of the foul.
  #43 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 29, 2016, 04:19pm
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Originally Posted by ajmc View Post
The original question related to defensive fouls behind the LOS being enforced either from the spot of the foul (NFHS), or the previous spot (NCAA).
Irrelevant to my post. I'll be charitable and say you misspoke insisting that all-but-one only applies in one situation. Everyone else is simply telling you that all-but-one applies to all fouls. And it does, the rules you quoted say as much.

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there is NOTHING WHATSOEVER about "All-But-One" that relates to Defensive fouls, other than they DON'T APPLY.
Where are fouls by the defense enforced from? The basic spot you say? You mean that it fits the definition of all-but-one, which is all fouls, except a foul by the offense behind the basic spot, are enforced from the basic spot?

Quote:
This has nothing to do with "admitting anything wrong".
Sure it does. You made a statement that was flat out wrong, got called on it, and now you can't crawdad your way away from it fast enough.

Just so you know, the NCAA equivalent is the 3 and 1 principle and it's exactly the same as the all-but-one principle. The 3 refers to the number of types of fouls that are enforced from the basic spot. Fouls by the defense in front of the basic spot, behind the basic spot and fouls by the offense beyond the basic spot.

It's exactly the same. Your arguing against it doesn't make it so.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 29, 2016, 04:58pm
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This one seems to have run its productive course.
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