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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 25, 2016, 02:19pm
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Originally Posted by Robert Goodman View Post
So sometimes it's been, let's work together while honoring our unique needs, while other times it's just been, we're better at this than you are.
Presuming for the moment (or at least hoping for) rule makers were more concerned with the objectives of and benefits football may provide at their specific level, than "we're better at this than you are", the differences are striking.

NFHS rules govern thousands of High Schools playing interscholastic sports, designed, in general, to provide physical outlets to growing, active CHILDREN and teach sportsmanship, teamwork, reliance on and responsibility to others and a wide variety of other necessary "Life" lessons. There is an enormous difference in available financial resources, facilities, size of participant pools, participation and community interest levels and the age and physical stature of interested participants, who may be in various stages of natural growth.

NCAA rules govern, generally, student activities at a physically, and usually emotionally and maturity, level of older participants at higher levels of skill, interest and experience within a similarly wide variety of levels broken down by financial capability, organizational objective and focus, resource allocation, facilities and expenditures, that add a variable level of recruiting, scholarships (worth considerable amounts of money requiring higher individual skill sets)) that often, at various internal levels, produce considerable revenues that help support and pay for additional organizational activities and expenses.

NFL rules govern a highly successful business venture, that provides enormous sums of money to extensive business enterprises that impact large population centers and financial interests, that enjoy virtually unlimited capabilities for facilities, venues, world wide advertising as well as participant career development and high level earning capacity. Players are those at the apex of skill sets, experience and ability and are usually extremely well paid for the services they are able to render.

The basic, and primary, objectives at each of these levels, although generally related are specifically and intentionally different and not surprisingly, have developed rule adjustments and differences designed to support their unique and specific objectives and perceived needs.

Is it reasonable to expect "one size would (should or ever could) fit all"?

Last edited by ajmc; Mon Jan 25, 2016 at 02:23pm.
  #17 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 25, 2016, 03:23pm
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Originally Posted by ajmc View Post

Is it reasonable to expect "one size would (should or ever could) fit all"?
No. Level specific differences are appropriate. Differences for the sake of being different are not and there are plenty of examples where this is true between NFHS and NCAA and the reason is due to NFHS specifically not desiring to be like NCAA.

Consistency between the NFHS and NCAA where practical is a good thing for the players, coaches and officials. I would say I don't see why that's such a difficult concept but I'd be lying.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 25, 2016, 06:15pm
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Originally Posted by Welpe View Post
No. Level specific differences are appropriate. Differences for the sake of being different are not and there are plenty of examples where this is true between NFHS and NCAA and the reason is due to NFHS specifically not desiring to be like NCAA.

Consistency between the NFHS and NCAA where practical is a good thing for the players, coaches and officials. I would say I don't see why that's such a difficult concept but I'd be lying.
Those are the gratuitous differences I am talking about.

For example, requiring a holder to lift a knee before pitching the ball. Every year I hear of a team doing that and it being called in a HS game and I always wonder -- exactly why should that be different than what everyone sees on TV?

Why can I tackle a QB by the face mask in a HS game and benefit from it?

And so on. Gratuitous.

The committee met last weekend and I'm not expecting a lot of changes.
  #19 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 25, 2016, 08:35pm
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Originally Posted by Rich View Post
Those are the gratuitous differences I am talking about.

For example, requiring a holder to lift a knee before pitching the ball. Every year I hear of a team doing that and it being called in a HS game and I always wonder -- exactly why should that be different than what everyone sees on TV?

Why can I tackle a QB by the face mask in a HS game and benefit from it?
The EXCEPTION to the rule that any player in possession of a live ball with other than a hand or foot on the ground is DEAD, allows a place kick holder to possess the ball while his knee is on the ground. The EXCEPTION is to allow the holder, to hold for a placekick.

If he's going to do something other than hold, he doesn't enjoy the exception and NFHS requires he rise, to take his knee off the ground.

Under the NFHS code a tackle involving grasping a facemask, applies to anyone grasping an opponent's face mask, which calls for a penalty enforcement from the spot of the foul. Applies to grasping a QB by the facemask whether the foul is committed behind, or in advance of the LOS, as it does for anyone else. How is either gratuitous?
  #20 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 25, 2016, 09:14pm
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Originally Posted by ajmc View Post
The EXCEPTION to the rule that any player in possession of a live ball with other than a hand or foot on the ground is DEAD, allows a place kick holder to possess the ball while his knee is on the ground. The EXCEPTION is to allow the holder, to hold for a placekick.

If he's going to do something other than hold, he doesn't enjoy the exception and NFHS requires he rise, to take his knee off the ground.

Under the NFHS code a tackle involving grasping a facemask, applies to anyone grasping an opponent's face mask, which calls for a penalty enforcement from the spot of the foul. Applies to grasping a QB by the facemask whether the foul is committed behind, or in advance of the LOS, as it does for anyone else. How is either gratuitous?
It is not a spot foul. It's an all-but-one enforcement. The basic spot's the end of the run. If you're going to be stubborn, at least be accurate.

The only reason I tackle the QB is because I illegally grab his face mask. And I get the benefit of those yards. The only truly fair enforcement is going back to the previous spot and tacking on the 15 yards. Having exceptions for fouls committed behind the line of scrimmage for BOTH teams is consistent, BTW, and it's what the NCAA does.
  #21 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 25, 2016, 10:40pm
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Originally Posted by Rich View Post
It is not a spot foul. It's an all-but-one enforcement. The basic spot's the end of the run. If you're going to be stubborn, at least be accurate.

The only reason I tackle the QB is because I illegally grab his face mask. And I get the benefit of those yards. The only truly fair enforcement is going back to the previous spot and tacking on the 15 yards. Having exceptions for fouls committed behind the line of scrimmage for BOTH teams is consistent, BTW, and it's what the NCAA does.
Obviously the NF does not care what you or I think is fair. And that is not the point of why rules are different. NF does not like to make exceptions to their rules and the NCAA is full of them.

Remember these rules are not made for you or me, they are made for the masses to understand and the mass of officials that work that level. This entire argument that the NCAA does makes more sense is not accurate IMO. Officials will screw up those kinds of things as not everyone is that knowledgeable about he rules they have in front of them already. And a lot of officials never work college ball so it makes little difference to them what the NCAA might do in some specific situations.

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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 25, 2016, 11:52pm
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Obviously the NF does not care what you or I think is fair. And that is not the point of why rules are different. NF does not like to make exceptions to their rules and the NCAA is full of them.
The NFHS has plenty of exceptions as well. They just aren't called out as Exceptions. They are in line of the rule using words like "unless" or "except". We had a local official go through the rule book looking for these words and he found the number of "exceptions" in HS wasn't that much different than NCAA.
  #23 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 26, 2016, 08:30am
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The one area that stands out to me as a difference that NFHS must be different on is the blocking rules. I am not an NCAA official but I work with a few and end up being involved in conversations with them or around them.

I don't want to be demeaning but there are a vast group of HS officials that would have difficulty calling some of the low blocking rules that the NCAA allows that we don't. Some of the equipment regulations that the NCAA either allows or ignores (knee pads & mouthpieces come to mind) would be safer if they followed the NFHS' lead. (And I do not wish to begin the debate of the uncovered knee).

The Fed is not totally heathen as they do allow the FBZ, adopted PSK, and the restricted area on the sideline.

As the Rules committee becomes younger, I'm sure you'll see a move more towards homogenization.
  #24 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 26, 2016, 09:32am
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Originally Posted by Rich View Post
It is not a spot foul. It's an all-but-one enforcement. The basic spot's the end of the run. If you're going to be stubborn, at least be accurate.
Accuracy, very much like "beauty" is, "often in the eye of the beholder". Presuming a QB, tackled by the face mask, is downed where the foul takes place, the spot of the foul IS the end of the run, so there really is no need to invoke an "All but one" adjustment.

When the defense has accomplished reaching the QB, or any runner behind the LOS without benefit of ANY illegal act, they are entitled to whatever yardage advantage they have legally attained.

Conversely, when the defense has legally forced the offense to retreat 10, or more yards, behind the LOS their is NO CONSEQUENCE to the offence choosing to foul, and in addition to the loss of yardage being the same, or less, (depending on the offensive foul selected) they gain, what some consider an UNFAIR advantage of replaying the down, when the penalty is accepted. In essence, the offense is ENCOURAGED to foul, as the penalty for doing so is negated by enforcing the penalty for fouling from the previous spot.

Much like "beauty", "stubbornness" is also, "often in the eye of the beholder.

Last edited by ajmc; Tue Jan 26, 2016 at 09:42am.
  #25 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 26, 2016, 10:15am
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Originally Posted by HLin NC View Post
The one area that stands out to me as a difference that NFHS must be different on is the blocking rules. I am not an NCAA official but I work with a few and end up being involved in conversations with them or around them.

I don't want to be demeaning but there are a vast group of HS officials that would have difficulty calling some of the low blocking rules that the NCAA allows that we don't. Some of the equipment regulations that the NCAA either allows or ignores (knee pads & mouthpieces come to mind) would be safer if they followed the NFHS' lead. (And I do not wish to begin the debate of the uncovered knee).

The Fed is not totally heathen as they do allow the FBZ, adopted PSK, and the restricted area on the sideline.

As the Rules committee becomes younger, I'm sure you'll see a move more towards homogenization.
The NCAA also has 7 or 8 officials. Many of us never work anything outside of 5 in any high school game. You can key on players a lot better in 7 or 8 than you can with 5 officials.

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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 26, 2016, 11:44am
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The NCAA also has 7 or 8 officials
Agreed, another significant factor.
  #27 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 26, 2016, 12:28pm
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Originally Posted by Rich View Post
Those are the gratuitous differences I am talking about.

For example, requiring a holder to lift a knee before pitching the ball. Every year I hear of a team doing that and it being called in a HS game and I always wonder -- exactly why should that be different than what everyone sees on TV?
I believe, though I'm not sure, that difference, like the one below, was a result of NCAA's change, Fed's inertia. Some years after adopting (early 1930s, before Fed had their own football rules) the provision that a knee down made the ball dead except when holding for a place kick, NCAA added language allowing the ballcarrier in such a position to "arise". Much later, NCAA looked at play situations & decided that wording was unnecessarily restrictive; situations of passing the ball while kneeling just hadn't occurred to them when they originally adopted the provision. They might not have been pushed into reconsidering until after some officials complained about having to make the call of whether the holder got his knee off the ground in time to pass.
Quote:
Why can I tackle a QB by the face mask in a HS game and benefit from it?
That last difference resulted from a change by NCAA, Fed keeping the old rule. However, they could also say that with the number of people officiating under Fed rules, the need to keep administration of penalties simple is greater than it is for NCAA or NFL.
  #28 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 27, 2016, 11:06am
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Originally Posted by ajmc View Post
When the defense has accomplished reaching the QB, or any runner behind the LOS without benefit of ANY illegal act, they are entitled to whatever yardage advantage they have legally attained.
"Reaching the QB" and "tackling the QB" are often two different animals.

Here's Rich's quote: "The only reason I tackle the QB is because I illegally grab his face mask. And I get the benefit of those yards." (emphasis added)

Do we know what would have happened had the illegal act not occurred? No. The offense might have made a significant gain. That's why the penalty administration in this case is considered a "gratuitous difference".
  #29 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 27, 2016, 02:17pm
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Originally Posted by CT1 View Post
"Reaching the QB" and "tackling the QB" are often two different animals.

Here's Rich's quote: "The only reason I tackle the QB is because I illegally grab his face mask. And I get the benefit of those yards." (emphasis added)

Do we know what would have happened had the illegal act not occurred? No. The offense might have made a significant gain.
Of course the same could be said of the same foul's occurrence anywhere on the field. The offense might've made a significant gain from there, but what does the previous spot have to do with that?

You could change the rule to make it a judgment call on that basis if that's the concern. At a rugby match I saw a player reach out & make a neck tackle at midfield, upon which the ref awarded a penalty try, which is supposed to be given if absent the foul play a try would probably have been scored. I had my doubts about that, so I asked the ref & he said indeed that by his judgment of the situation (it was the wing on that side, who was outside the rest of the defense) if the tackler hadn't reached up with his arm like that, he would not have been able to make a tackle. (I still thought he could instead have gone low & grabbed a leg instead, which could as well be said in the case of the face mask grab Rich was referring to.)
  #30 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 27, 2016, 03:20pm
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Originally Posted by CT1 View Post
"Reaching the QB" and "tackling the QB" are often two different animals.

Here's Rich's quote: "The only reason I tackle the QB is because I illegally grab his face mask. And I get the benefit of those yards." (emphasis added)

Do we know what would have happened had the illegal act not occurred? No. The offense might have made a significant gain. That's why the penalty administration in this case is considered a "gratuitous difference".
Is it POSSIBLE to tackle anyone, without first reaching them? "Reaching" any player is totally and completely separate from anything you actually do to a player you have successfully reached. If a DEFENSIVE player subsequently does something illegal at that point (where an opponent is reached) the illegal behavior is penalized EITHER from that spot, or if the fouled player continues to advance after the foul, from the spot where his advancement ends.

When an OFFENSIVE foul is committed BEHIND the eventual End of the Run, the NFHS ALL BUT ONE enforcement principle presumes that any yardage gained BEYOND/AFTER the spot of the foul is an "Ill gotten gain", and the enforcement is applied from the spot of the foul RATHER than the spot where the run ACTUALLY ended.

ALL BUT ONE does NOT apply to defensive fouls, so I'm not sure what your above reference is intended to relate to.

Under the NFHS code, the runner is entitled to any and all yardage he legally gained (without benefit of any fouling). NFHS:10-4-2 defines those instances where the "basic spot" (NFHS: 2-41-1) to be used for PENALTY enforcement is "the previous spot".

Sorry, but I have no idea what you are trying to infer regarding, "gratuitous difference" and, to my understanding, NFHS does not consider, "things that might have been"(Thankfully)

Last edited by ajmc; Wed Jan 27, 2016 at 03:24pm.
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