We need a new signal for IF!

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I haven't. Usually the problem with offenses is they line up wrong and cover an eligible receiver (a flag I had on Saturday BTW). Hardly ever see where they unknowingly play with 10. The times they have 10, someone yells over to the sideline and gets the 11th guy on the field or notice that he was missing and it never is a factor to where you have to count who is in the backfield.

Again, this is like arguing if you like a blonde over a brunette or a big butt over a small waist. At the end of the day I am going to be alright with what I like you will be fine with what you like. And if this is a hard adjustment, I feel there are bigger issues to worry about adjustment from the two codes.

Oh well.

Peace

So, what do you do? Do you count seven linemen on every play?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich

So, what do you do? Do you count seven linemen on every play?

Rich I believe I made it very clear what we do. The wings are not responsible for counting the offense and one wing is usually counting the defense (the LJ). The count comes from the R and the U. If the numbers are correct, all you have to do is count 4 in the backfield or realize someone is covered up (which we would communicate by other signals to each wing). We have the wings worry about catching substitutions or eligible, not counting the entire offense.

Again, I do not see this as a problem. It works pretty well just like other aspects of officiating a football game where we have to work together.

Peace

[Rich]

Isn't this what I said?

You have to get the "11" signal from the R/U and then you count the backs.

In NCAA rules, you don't bother with looking for that signal -- you just count the backs.

It's not the mechanics that I care about, though. Anyone who's ever had 10 run out on a punt and have 6 on the line and had to throw a IF flag for no good reason wishes the rule was written like the NCAA rule was written.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich

Isn't this what I said?

You have to get the "11" signal from the R/U and then you count the backs.

In NCAA rules, you don't bother with looking for that signal -- you just count the backs.

It's not the mechanics that I care about, though. Anyone who's ever had 10 run out on a punt and have 6 on the line and had to throw a IF flag for no good reason wishes the rule was written like the NCAA rule was written.

I really do not know what you are saying or trying to suggest is hard. The wings in my world do not do a count of all players on offense unless some crews insist on having the count from their sideline's team. But that is rare.

And if you do not worry about a signal, OK. I guess. Again not something I worry about or have to worry about on my crews at either level.

Again such a rare situation to even deal with, but I guess someone has to worry about something while we officiate. Just not something I worry about. I am indifferent either way. It does not need to be changed because some college guys do not like the rule. That is poor reasoning as I have not heard major complaining by anyone for this rule but a few college officials.

Peace

[Rich]

You mustn't work a lot of JV or freshman games. I do -- it gives me something to do on Monday and Thursday nights. The number of times we "run short" on special teams plays at those levels is staggering.

And if they don't move a 7th player up to the line, it's a foul.

I'd just rather have that not be a foul, is all.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich

You mustn't work a lot of JV or freshman games. I do -- it gives me something to do on Monday and Thursday nights. The number of times we "run short" on special teams plays at those levels is staggering.

I do not work a lot if any JV or freshman football. I do not have the time with the other things I am doing in work or in my associations. I work only Fridays and Saturdays and still, I do not see this as a big issue. And a lot of those levels you mentioned will not even do the kicking game at all other than maybe a kickoff. Otherwise a freshman game might not do a single punt during the game as they just agree to move the ball forward and set it down 30 yards ahead or some agreed distance. And if I did still work the game, I never saw this as a huge problem the other 15 years or so I worked a lot of lower level ball.

Originally Posted by Rich

We had no issue with this years before the NCAA changed the rule, now because the NCAA made a change, the HS level has to as well?

And if they don't move a 7th player up to the line, it's a foul.

I'd just rather have that not be a foul, is all.

OK. I do not care either way. And if you can put them on the line, then you have a decision to make I guess.

Peace

[Rich]

Our lower level games at the HS level are played no differently than varsity games. Special teams included. Occasionally they'll waive numbering requirements based on players/jerseys.

Youth games (up through 6th or 7th grade) eliminate some of those aspects. Those games pay well for the time involved, but you always have to figure out what rules have been invented for that night.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich

Our lower level games at the HS level are played no differently than varsity games. Special teams included. Occasionally they'll waive numbering requirements based on players/jerseys.

This is totally up to the schools. And if they have a light freshman team they might not have enough kids to play special teams and want to eliminate them. It is not a state mandate or something done across the board, just something that commonly is used in our games. And we do not wave numbering unless there is such a problem that we have to do something to just play the game. These are always a case by case situation. They play like 8 levels at a school (I am kind of exaggerating) so it is hard to field complete teams for each level sometimes. These non-Friday night contests are just to get kids a chance to play. So special teams can be eliminated if the coaches agree to it. And as an official I never discourage or encourage what they wish to do for their programs.

Peace

[jTheUmp]

Has the dead horse been beaten enough yet?

My opinion:
I work games under both rulesets.

The NCAA rule is better than the NFHS rule.

The NFHS rule will probably never change due to apathy on the part of the rulesmakers, which is the same reason why the "opponent of the scoring shall designate which team will kick off" rule is still on the books in FED.

I actually don't mind the difference too much; it makes for a great illustration of the "the rules for HS and college are basically the same, but subtle changes in wording of the rule can make a big difference" conversation piece when talking to non-officials or newbie officials.

[Rich]

Good way to end this.