When to signal, or not to...

[TussAgee11]

Something I've been wondering about...

Sometimes I will work with a partner that does not signal when there is a play on the runner. This seems to happen most on casual pick off attempts where everyone in the park knows the runner made it back. If you are BU, should you...

a) Signal everytime, even if no tag attempt was made?
b) Signal only when the 1B tries to put a tag on
c) Never signal

I do B, but some of the people I work with will do A or C.

This also seems to happen on stand up doubles where F6 or F4 will casually place a tag on the runner while trotting the ball back to the pitcher. Is a casual safe signal here acceptable?

Thanks.

[JRutledge]

I mostly use B. If there is no tag I do not see a reason to give a signal.

Also if a player is standing on the base and there clearly is not an issue with safe and out, I likely will not signal there either.

Peace

[SanDiegoSteve]

Same thing. On pickoff attempts, I give no signal unless it is a really close play. Then I either sell it "Safe!," or bang the runner "Out!" if he got him. If it is fairly close, I may give a non-verbal casual safe signal.

[TussAgee11]

I'm not as experienced as either of you, but forgive my rhetorical question.

Do you not point on obvious strike calls?

Shouldn't you be calling, or at least signaling, everything? Point me in the right direction here.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

I'm not as experienced as either of you, but forgive my rhetorical question.

Do you not point on obvious strike calls?

Shouldn't you be calling, or at least signaling, everything? Point me in the right direction here.

Do you signal a fair ball that is hit to center field?

A pitch is much different than a ball thrown to a base and nothing has happen. Everyone might not know what the pitch is. If there is no tag, why is it necessary when a tag may or may not make a runner out?

You are trying to compare apples and oranges.

Peace

[SanDiegoSteve]

Pointing or hammering a swinging strike is for the benefit of someone who might have looked down or away when the pitch came. This keeps these folks from asking "hey, what was that pitch" when they weren't paying attention. It also makes it easy for the official scorer, who is busy writing and may not be able to tell if it was a swing or not.

Compare it to a Ball call. If the pitch goes way over the catcher's glove all the way to the backstop, do you really need to holler "Ball!" at the top of your lungs? Of course not. In fact, you don't even need to say "Ball" at all, because by definition it is a pitch which is not called a strike. You need to acknowledge "Strike" calls, but you don't need to say "Ball" if you don't want to (though most umpires do). The same goes for obvious "Safe" calls. No signal needed, except on close plays. A physical "Out" signal should be made on all outs recorded at any base, close or not. If it isn't close, and the runner is safe by a large margin, no "Safe" signal is necessary, since if the runner is not out, the only other choice is safe, and it is obvious to all that he's safe.

Now, you should be more confused than ever!

[Old Time Ump]

Mr. Agee, whether you give a hand signal or not when the situation is obvious is entirely up to you. What is more important in my judgment is how you give all your signals. I hope you will eschew the
'selling' and 'banging' histrionics which has become so popular among umpires today. Your decisions can (should) always be conveyed by a casual gesture. It is not for an umpire to add emotion to the play. Consider , if you will, what is being expressed when a PU does his merry dance on a called third strike. 'Punching out', so to speak. The act is an emotional outburst in praise of the pitcher' achievment. Why then should not the same __or a similar_dance occur on a called Ball Four which would acclaim the batter's great eye? Obtain a film of Chris Pelekoudas doing a National League game in the '60s. His casual and slow signals constituted an art form that is sadly missed today. McClelland and Froemming are as close to him as you can find among the current staff.

[SanDiegoSteve]

God, you really are OLD.

Tuss, try to remember that we use 21st century mechanics, not mid-20th. Nobody is advocating doing a "merry dance." I don't even know what that means. Perhaps what Leslie Nielsen did in Naked Gun, or something similar. but punching out a batter on strike 3 called is very standard accepted mechanics at any level, as is selling a close play. You never want to look casual on a close play. It looks very lazy, and apathetic, as do McClelland and Froemming on many bangers. Bangers are called bangers for a good reason, and calling them with strong emphasis is not an "emotional outburst," but rather a strong indication that you are very sure of your call.

[JRutledge]

I honestly have no idea what this old guy is talking about.

When I have seen old tapes of games in the 50s and 60s, you would see umpires go into convulsions to make an easy call. I really do not know what he is talking about when he claims that you do not need to make a call without a "dance." How adamant you need to be is another issue entirely if you ask me. This thread is about do you need a signal or not on plays that are obvious.

Peace

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by Old Time Ump

Mr. Agee, whether you give a hand signal or not when the situation is obvious is entirely up to you. What is more important in my judgment is how you give all your signals. I hope you will eschew the
'selling' and 'banging' histrionics which has become so popular among umpires today. Your decisions can (should) always be conveyed by a casual gesture. It is not for an umpire to add emotion to the play. Consider , if you will, what is being expressed when a PU does his merry dance on a called third strike. 'Punching out', so to speak. The act is an emotional outburst in praise of the pitcher' achievment. Why then should not the same __or a similar_dance occur on a called Ball Four which would acclaim the batter's great eye? Obtain a film of Chris Pelekoudas doing a National League game in the '60s. His casual and slow signals constituted an art form that is sadly missed today. McClelland and Froemming are as close to him as you can find among the current staff.

I don't do "a merry dance" to convey how good the players have just done. I do it so the coaches don't question every freakin close play I call. Although a casual out mechanic conveys the same meaning as a good, stiff, [U]controlled[U] bang out, the latter is used to convey confidence that we are 110% correct in our judgement. I can't believe we're talking about this!

Tuss, please, sell your close calls (either on the bases or behind the dish). I'm sure you already do, but don't let Old Timer get you thinking otherwise.

And Old Timer, please... I won't even go there....

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by Old Time Ump

Mr. Agee, whether you give a hand signal or not when the situation is obvious is entirely up to you. What is more important in my judgment is how you give all your signals. I hope you will eschew the
'selling' and 'banging' histrionics which has become so popular among umpires today. Your decisions can (should) always be conveyed by a casual gesture. It is not for an umpire to add emotion to the play. Consider , if you will, what is being expressed when a PU does his merry dance on a called third strike. 'Punching out', so to speak. The act is an emotional outburst in praise of the pitcher' achievment. Why then should not the same __or a similar_dance occur on a called Ball Four which would acclaim the batter's great eye? Obtain a film of Chris Pelekoudas doing a National League game in the '60s. His casual and slow signals constituted an art form that is sadly missed today. McClelland and Froemming are as close to him as you can find among the current staff.

I can't help it... this has gotta be one of the most ridiculous posts I've ever seen!


Edited because I can't spell for beans!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by ctblu40

I can't help it... this has gotta be one of the most rediculous posts I've ever seen!

LOL......

JThomas(Old Ump) from McGriffs has found this site.

And he still don't own any rulebooks- in any sport.

[kylejt]

I love the old guys post. And I will use "his merry dance" reference in my upcoming clinics.

Classics stuff, and I respect his point of view. Me, I am a Ron Luciano fan. Shooting guys out at first from a knee, etc. No big punchouts, unless I have a big situation in a big game. I let the situation dictate the emotion of the call.

[ggk]

how about routine fly balls? do you guys signal anything. as a BU i used to give a very casual out signal, but a college guy got on my case for even that. he said that i shouldn't do anything unless there is some question - catch below the knee, etc.
if i'm PU and i have the ball i will casually tell my partner (who is watching the runner) that the ball was caught ("that's a catch, bill') but that is it.
i have some partners who scream 'catch' on every can of corn and i think it is a bit much. thoughts?

[mrm21711]

Originally Posted by ggk

how about routine fly balls? do you guys signal anything. as a BU i used to give a very casual out signal, but a college guy got on my case for even that. he said that i shouldn't do anything unless there is some question - catch below the knee, etc.
if i'm PU and i have the ball i will casually tell my partner (who is watching the runner) that the ball was caught ("that's a catch, bill') but that is it.
i have some partners who scream 'catch' on every can of corn and i think it is a bit much. thoughts?

PBUC mechanic is not to signal anything on a routine catch, ect. I was working this year with one of the better umpires in the state (worked HS Division I chamionships, regionals, ect.) and he got on my case about not signaling routine outs when in B or C on fly balls hit to the outfield.