We need a new signal for IF!

[CT1]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Low blocks in many areas of the line, not just a confined area as small as the FBZ, changes for a player that goes in motion as well.

But that has nothing to do with formation fouls.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by CT1

But that has nothing to do with formation fouls.

I did not say it did. We have other things to watch or observe than just a formation foul, which is why I do not see why this change would be so much better. How hard is it to communicate you have 10 players and adjust? Two people are counting the offense every play and should be able to tell the wings that there are 10 and realize how many are in the backfield.

Peace

[Rich]

You have other things to watch for? Sure, you do.

But you still need to know if there's IF -- that's a wing's call, nobody else's. You're counting backs regardless of how the rule's written.

(1) Fewer than 7 on the line? Now you need to know how many are on the field.

(2) 5 in the backfield? Now you don't need to worry about the number of A players on the field. Your job's actually easier!

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich

You have other things to watch for? Sure, you do.

But you still need to know if there's IF -- that's a wing's call, nobody else's. You're counting backs regardless of how the rule's written.

(1) Fewer than 7 on the line? Now you need to know how many are on the field.

(2) 5 in the backfield? Now you don't need to worry about the number of A players on the field. Your job's actually easier!

Again a solution looking for a problem. I do not see anyone having a hard time with this. It is so rare that you have 10 on the field, who cares how many are in the backfield. That is why you count. You count 4 in the backfield and there are 12 on the field now what? Are you going to assume you have the right number on the field?

Peace

[CT1]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Again a solution looking for a problem. I do not see anyone having a hard time with this. It is so rare that you have 10 on the field, who cares how many are in the backfield. That is why you count. You count 4 in the backfield and there are 12 on the field now what? Are you going to assume you have the right number on the field?

No, because you should always count the team first. THEN you can look for the number of backs.

It ain't rocket science.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by CT1

No, because you should always count the team first. THEN you can look for the number of backs.

It ain't rocket science.

In 5-man, the wings (LJ primary, HL if he gets to it) are counting the defense with the BJ and are then getting the offensive count from the R/U, then counting the backs.

What I've said at least twice now, which hasn't gotten through cause someone doesn't ever want to hear, is if the rule was changed there's be no reason for the wings to have to pick up the count of the offense if the rule was the same as the NCAA rule. They could just count the defense and then count the backs.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by CT1

No, because you should always count the team first. THEN you can look for the number of backs.

It ain't rocket science.

Yes but who is doing the count? Wings are not always doing the same count. Yes it is not rocket science, but if a wing is not doing the count, they are relying on someone else to give them information. At least where I live, the LJ is supposed to count defense. The Umpire and Referee are the main people counting offense. So if you have fewer than 11, the wing does not have to complicate this by worrying about how many are in the backfield compared to how many are actually on the field.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich

In 5-man, the wings (LJ primary, HL if he gets to it) are counting the defense with the BJ and are then getting the offensive count from the R/U, then counting the backs.

What I've said at least twice now, which hasn't gotten through cause someone doesn't ever want to hear, is if the rule was changed there's be no reason for the wings to have to pick up the count of the offense if the rule was the same as the NCAA rule. They could just count the defense and then count the backs.

It is not about willing to hear you, I just do not agree with your position. It is OK Rich, not any sweat off my back. I just do not think the rule is appropriate for HS. If you do that is fine with me. But it is OK that I disagree with what rules should be used at other levels. If they change the rule again no sweat off my back. But something tells me they won't for such a minor issue IMO.

Peace

[CT1]

In our state, the wings count the team on their sideline all night. R counts offense, BJ counts defense. U has numbering 50-79. There are two officials counting each team on each play.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

At least where I live, the LJ is supposed to count defense. The Umpire and Referee are the main people counting offense. So if you have fewer than 11, the wing does not have to complicate this by worrying about how many are in the backfield compared to how many are actually on the field.

You have this completely flipped.

It is faster to count backs than it is number of linemen.

If the rule requires no more than 4 in the backfield, it doesn't matter how many players the offense has.

As it stands now, in Fed, if you want to count backs to determine legality, you need to pick up the count from the R or U. Otherwise you need to count the linemen which isn't all that easy sometimes.

Not to mention the fact that if the offense is lined up with a missing lineman, it's going to be a foul and it's a dumb one. Not a problem in NCAA.

Having called high school under both rules, I'd much rather have the NCAA rule. It would be a simple and pain free change to make.

[Texas Aggie]

Fed still requires 7 on the line? Really??

Do ya'll play with leather helmets and no face masks too? (Sorry. Couldn't resist.)

[Welpe]

Yeah...let's just say this transition back to Fed rules has not been enjoyable.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Welpe

You have this completely flipped.

It is faster to count backs than it is number of linemen.

If the rule requires no more than 4 in the backfield, it doesn't matter how many players the offense has.

As it stands now, in Fed, if you want to count backs to determine legality, you need to pick up the count from the R or U. Otherwise you need to count the linemen which isn't all that easy sometimes.

Not to mention the fact that if the offense is lined up with a missing lineman, it's going to be a foul and it's a dumb one. Not a problem in NCAA.

Having called high school under both rules, I'd much rather have the NCAA rule. It would be a simple and pain free change to make.

I just worked my first college game this past weekend as a short wing and I saw nothing special about how many I counted in the backfield. Absolutely none.

I watched the Umpire and Referee signal and went off of them as I would have done in any HS game. And to add we did not have a single situation where we played with 10 at any point in the game. I have been the Referee on my high school crew and we maybe have only once had 10 on the in 3 games and that was on a scrimmage kick formation. Again this sounds like a solution looking for a problem. Everything done at the higher levels is not a good or great idea for that level. And football is one of those sports that really does not need a college rule to apply to the high school level. Other sports the game is not so different at its core.

That is why again I said I see no point in changing the rule when this is almost an insignificant and almost never is an issue. If this happen every game I could see it, but offenses do not go out unknowingly playing with 10 players. When someone is missing a coach or player is calling a timeout. And we are worried about this rule of how many should be on the line or in the backfield? Really???

Peace

[Welpe]

I would expect counting backs would be exactly the same between high school and college and that's exactly the point.

As I said before, I've see it happen enough that it's worth changing to get rid of a dumb foul. The only reason not to change is to be different from college and that's a pointless argument against.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Welpe

I would expect counting backs would be exactly the same between high school and college and that's exactly the point.

As I said before, I've see it happen enough that it's worth changing to get rid of a dumb foul. The only reason not to change is to be different from college and that's a pointless argument against.

I haven't. Usually the problem with offenses is they line up wrong and cover an eligible receiver (a flag I had on Saturday BTW). Hardly ever see where they unknowingly play with 10. The times they have 10, someone yells over to the sideline and gets the 11th guy on the field or notice that he was missing and it never is a factor to where you have to count who is in the backfield.

Again, this is like arguing if you like a blonde over a brunette or a big butt over a small waist. At the end of the day I am going to be alright with what I like you will be fine with what you like. And if this is a hard adjustment, I feel there are bigger issues to worry about adjustment from the two codes.

Oh well.

Peace