We need a new signal for IF!

[bigjohn]

Had at least 10 live ball false starts the other night if you listened to the PA guy! Officials kept yelling 5 backs at the sidelines.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

Had at least 10 live ball false starts the other night if you listened to the PA guy! Officials kept yelling 5 backs at the sidelines.

Are you saying something about the 5 backs too...or just the PA guy?

Our wings see that we (R/U) have 11 and then count the backs. They only actually count linemen if we signal 10.

Too bad the NFHS doesn't see the wisdom in the NCAA rule -- there's no good reason to penalize 6 on the line when there are 10 on the field.

[JRutledge]

No, we do not need a new signal. That is what the microphone is for. If you need that much communication, get a microphone for the games.

And there is no reason for a rules change either. I like the NF rule.

Peace

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by Rich

Too bad the NFHS doesn't see the wisdom in the NCAA rule -- there's no good reason to penalize 6 on the line when there are 10 on the field.

Agreed. It is easier to officiate too IMO.

That said it is amusing to hear the "false start" on a live ball foul coming from the announcer. One of my first games of the season, somebody on the crew flagged an illegal formation that ended up calling back a score. The announcer called it a false start and a parent started yelling "If it was false start you should have blown your whistle blah blah blah."

One of the coaches for the team that fouled turned around and yelled back at his fan "It wasn't a false start! Now shut up!"

[bigjohn]

Hell after a while I thought they were calling travelling!!!

[Rich]

On top of that, the "dead ball foul" signal is completely worthless on those presnap fouls -- NCAA has eliminated them and it would be nice to see the NFHS (officially) do the same.

10 on the field for a punt, 6 on the line.

10 on the field anytime, 6 on the line.

I can't imagine a single reason why this should be a formation foul and can't understand why anyone (Rut, care to explain) thinks the rule is "OK as it is."

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich

On top of that, the "dead ball foul" signal is completely worthless on those presnap fouls -- NCAA has eliminated them and it would be nice to see the NFHS (officially) do the same.

10 on the field for a punt, 6 on the line.

10 on the field anytime, 6 on the line.

I can't imagine a single reason why this should be a formation foul and can't understand why anyone (Rut, care to explain) thinks the rule is "OK as it is."

I think this is a solution looking for a problem. I think it makes no difference either way. All rules that work at the higher levels do not need to be changed at the high school level. This is one of those rules IMO that makes no competitive advantage or even common sense to just require 4 in the backfield. All the other time they can have more on the line, but if we have 10 now we have to make sure they have 4 in the backfield. Sorry, that sounds very unnecessary to me. And I work college so this does not bother me at all that the rule is different. Honestly I do not get why NCAA felt the need to change in the first place. But then again I am almost never a short wing so this is not something I have to worry about most of the time if ever. I would much rather worry about getting more official on the field and covering more things than worrying about a rule that does not make you better because you have 4 in the backfield with only 10 or fewer on the field.

Again, just an opinion. It does not have to be right. But I get a little tired of always trying to change a high school rule because college or pro has that rule.

I do have a question about this rule overall. Does NFL have this rule in place?

Peace

[CT1]

I agree we need a separate signal. Perhaps it could be the signal given by men to silently describe a voluptuous woman's shape.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Welpe

One of the coaches for the team that fouled turned around and yelled back at his fan "It wasn't a false start! Now shut up!"

That would have been hard to keep a straight face if I heard that for sure.

Again, problem solved if the Referee is mic'd.

Peace

[Welpe]

Yeah...let's just say this transition back to Fed rules has not been enjoyable.

[Welpe]

I would expect counting backs would be exactly the same between high school and college and that's exactly the point.

As I said before, I've see it happen enough that it's worth changing to get rid of a dumb foul. The only reason not to change is to be different from college and that's a pointless argument against.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Welpe

I would expect counting backs would be exactly the same between high school and college and that's exactly the point.

As I said before, I've see it happen enough that it's worth changing to get rid of a dumb foul. The only reason not to change is to be different from college and that's a pointless argument against.

I haven't. Usually the problem with offenses is they line up wrong and cover an eligible receiver (a flag I had on Saturday BTW). Hardly ever see where they unknowingly play with 10. The times they have 10, someone yells over to the sideline and gets the 11th guy on the field or notice that he was missing and it never is a factor to where you have to count who is in the backfield.

Again, this is like arguing if you like a blonde over a brunette or a big butt over a small waist. At the end of the day I am going to be alright with what I like you will be fine with what you like. And if this is a hard adjustment, I feel there are bigger issues to worry about adjustment from the two codes.

Oh well.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I haven't. Usually the problem with offenses is they line up wrong and cover an eligible receiver (a flag I had on Saturday BTW). Hardly ever see where they unknowingly play with 10. The times they have 10, someone yells over to the sideline and gets the 11th guy on the field or notice that he was missing and it never is a factor to where you have to count who is in the backfield.

Again, this is like arguing if you like a blonde over a brunette or a big butt over a small waist. At the end of the day I am going to be alright with what I like you will be fine with what you like. And if this is a hard adjustment, I feel there are bigger issues to worry about adjustment from the two codes.

Oh well.

Peace

So, what do you do? Do you count seven linemen on every play?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich

So, what do you do? Do you count seven linemen on every play?

Rich I believe I made it very clear what we do. The wings are not responsible for counting the offense and one wing is usually counting the defense (the LJ). The count comes from the R and the U. If the numbers are correct, all you have to do is count 4 in the backfield or realize someone is covered up (which we would communicate by other signals to each wing). We have the wings worry about catching substitutions or eligible, not counting the entire offense.

Again, I do not see this as a problem. It works pretty well just like other aspects of officiating a football game where we have to work together.

Peace

[Rich]

Isn't this what I said?

You have to get the "11" signal from the R/U and then you count the backs.

In NCAA rules, you don't bother with looking for that signal -- you just count the backs.

It's not the mechanics that I care about, though. Anyone who's ever had 10 run out on a punt and have 6 on the line and had to throw a IF flag for no good reason wishes the rule was written like the NCAA rule was written.