Shooting Foul? (Video)

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

I was waiting for someone else to say that

If the calling official just waits a beat after blowing his whistle he might have gotten it right. It would have given him time to process:

*She stopped dribbling...
*10 feet from the basket...
*With no teammates in sight, therefore...
*What the heck else was she going to do other than shoot?

Also, had he switched after the foul his partner might have been able to give him a nudge in the right direction by gently - and quietly - asking, "Are we counting that?"

If he still was going to (incorrectly) call it a non-shooting foul he really needed to be less nonchalant about waving off the goal. The way he did it tells me he had an "oh crap, that wasn't supposed to happen" moment when the ball went in.

It really is amazing what whistle timing can do for you. I've noticed my call percentages go up as I wait for the play to finish and then decide whether I need a whistle. There are lots of plays that start out as marginal (like the OP play) and develop into something more obvious that needs calling.

I'm not totally sure that suggesting a change to your partner during a switch is a good idea. If you want him to get it as shooting you should get to him before he leaves the area to go report and have a brief chat there. Plus given the narrow-minded view of continuation by most coaches I doubt the opposing coach would be very happy in getting your partner to change his call so late on something that looks like NBA-length continuation.

Lead in the OP does need to sell it better, but perhaps it's perfect for the level of play that he desires to work.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by AremRed

It really is amazing what whistle timing can do for you. I've noticed my call percentages go up as I wait for the play to finish and then decide whether I need a whistle. There are lots of plays that start out as marginal (like the OP play) and develop into something more obvious that needs calling.

I'm not totally sure that suggesting a change to your partner during a switch is a good idea. If you want him to get it as shooting you should get to him before he leaves the area to go report and have a brief chat there. Plus given the narrow-minded view of continuation by most coaches I doubt the opposing coach would be very happy in getting your partner to change his call so late on something that looks like NBA-length continuation.

Lead in the OP does need to sell it better, but perhaps it's perfect for the level of play that he desires to work.

It's not really suggesting, it's just planting a seed. On the flip side...during a camp I attended this month there was a play similar to the OP. I was T and my partner - who is one of my mentors - made the call at L (3-person). As she walked past me while we're switching she says, so only I can hear, "You have her shooting?" I said yes, she reported it as a shooting foul and we lined them up. No long conversation. One quiet question, one quiet answer. She wasn't completely sure so she asked.

[deecee]

This is a shooting foul at the time of the whistle. It should have been a no-call and a patient whistle would have created that outcome.

EDIT: There is a traveling but it's very close and requires slo-mo. One that in real time will more than likely go missed.

[OKREF]

Just throwing this out there, and the time of the whistle, it doesn't look like she had started a habitual shooting motion. Just picking up a dribble doesn't necessarily constitute a shooting motion.

Originally Posted by OKREF

Just throwing this out there, and the time of the whistle, it doesn't look like she had started a habitual shooting motion. Just picking up a dribble doesn't necessarily constitute a shooting motion.

Depends on the rule set.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Depends on the rule set.

NFHS. It is a shot if the player has started their "habitual shooting motion".

Rule 4.41.3 The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball.

To me it doesn't look like she starts her shot until after the whistle.

[Stat-Man]

It looked like she carried the ball between :03 and :04

Originally Posted by OKREF

NFHS. It is a shot if the player has started their "habitual shooting motion".

Rule 4.41.3 The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball.

To me it doesn't look like she starts her shot until after the whistle.

Correct. The NFHS and NBA both consider the gather to be the beginning of the "motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball" whereas NCAA-M specifically requires upward motion to be considered shooting.

[APG]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Just throwing this out there, and the time of the whistle, it doesn't look like she had started a habitual shooting motion. Just picking up a dribble doesn't necessarily constitute a shooting motion.

NCAA-M is the only rule set where I wouldn't be giving the player shots.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by deecee

This is a shooting foul at the time of the whistle. It should have been a no-call and a patient whistle would have created that outcome.

Agree.

Originally Posted by deecee

EDIT: There is a traveling but it's very close and requires slo-mo. One that in real time will more than likely go missed.

If that is close, I'd love to see what it takes for it to not be close for you. To me, this one is pretty obvious, even at full speed and a horrible angle.

[APG]

Originally Posted by OKREF

NFHS. It is a shot if the player has started their "habitual shooting motion".

Rule 4.41.3 The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball.

To me it doesn't look like she starts her shot until after the whistle.

Rule 4-11-2 I think is the clearer reference to these plays:

If an opponent fouls after a player has started a try for goal, he/she is permitted to complete the customary arm movement, and if pivoting or stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball. These privileges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in flight.

As soon as the player ended her dribble, her arm movements and steps tell us she's started her shooting motion. If the contact by 15 is illegal, I would allow the offensive player the customary arm and foot movements involved while holding the ball.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by APG

Rule 4-11-2 I think is the clearer reference to these plays:

If an opponent fouls after a player has started a try for goal, he/she is permitted to complete the customary arm movement, and if pivoting or stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball. These privileges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in flight.

As soon as the player ended her dribble, her arm movements and steps tell us she's started her shooting motion. If the contact by 15 is illegal, I would allow the offensive player the customary arm and foot movements involved while holding the ball.

I get 4-11. However, she wasn't fouled after the start of her motion, she was fouled prior to any start of a motion. If she hasn't started her motion before the foul, I'm not awarding foul shots.

[APG]

Originally Posted by OKREF

I get 4-11. However, she wasn't fouled after the start of her motion, she was fouled prior to any start of a motion. If she hasn't started her motion before the foul, I'm not awarding foul shots.

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

If the calling official just waits a beat after blowing his whistle he might have gotten it right. It would have given him time to process:

*She stopped dribbling...
*10 feet from the basket...
*With no teammates in sight, therefore...
*What the heck else was she going to do other than shoot?

JMF said it best...every single context clue tells us as soon as she ended her dribble and was stepping to the basket, she had indeed started her motion to shoot....what the hell else is she doing? IMO, (and as AremRed stated), we (the collective we) do a poor job of putting players on the line.

When in doubt, or if it's close, I'll put the player on the line...the team whose player committed the illegal act does not get the benefit of the doubt.