Shooting Foul? (Video)

[deecee]

This is a shooting foul at the time of the whistle. It should have been a no-call and a patient whistle would have created that outcome.

EDIT: There is a traveling but it's very close and requires slo-mo. One that in real time will more than likely go missed.

[OKREF]

Just throwing this out there, and the time of the whistle, it doesn't look like she had started a habitual shooting motion. Just picking up a dribble doesn't necessarily constitute a shooting motion.

Originally Posted by OKREF

Just throwing this out there, and the time of the whistle, it doesn't look like she had started a habitual shooting motion. Just picking up a dribble doesn't necessarily constitute a shooting motion.

Depends on the rule set.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Depends on the rule set.

NFHS. It is a shot if the player has started their "habitual shooting motion".

Rule 4.41.3 The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball.

To me it doesn't look like she starts her shot until after the whistle.

[Stat-Man]

It looked like she carried the ball between :03 and :04

Originally Posted by Stat-Man

It looked like she carried the ball between :03 and :04

Marginal.

Originally Posted by OKREF

NFHS. It is a shot if the player has started their "habitual shooting motion".

Rule 4.41.3 The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball.

To me it doesn't look like she starts her shot until after the whistle.

Correct. The NFHS and NBA both consider the gather to be the beginning of the "motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball" whereas NCAA-M specifically requires upward motion to be considered shooting.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Correct. The NFHS and NBA both consider the gather to be the beginning of the "motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball" whereas NCAA-M specifically requires upward motion to be considered shooting.

They do? Not in any place I've seen (NFHS). First, there the NFHS doesn't even have the concept of "gather". In fact, neither does the NCAA despite how many people use that term.. I can't say about the NBA. To me, a "gather", even in NFHS, is not sufficient to determine it to be a shot. I need just a bit more for it to be a shot...some movement, once the ball is held, that normally leads to a shot. Simply picking up the ball is just not enough.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Correct. The NFHS and NBA both consider the gather to be the beginning of the "motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball" whereas NCAA-M specifically requires upward motion to be considered shooting.

i dont know about nba and it is end of july so i havnt read a book since april. im getting old. where does nfhs say the gather counts as part of the habitual motion etc?

i do know ncaa does not include foot movement for continuous motion. thx

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BigCat

i dont know about nba and it is end of july so i havnt read a book since april. im getting old. where does nfhs say the gather counts as part of the habitual motion etc?

i do know ncaa does not include foot movement for continuous motion. thx

It doesn't, shooting motion is totally the judgment of the official, it is not defined:

4-41 ART. 3

The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BigCat

i dont know about nba and it is end of july so i havnt read a book since april. im getting old. where does nfhs say the gather counts as part of the habitual motion etc?

Same place it says this:

Originally Posted by BigCat

i need to see some movement up before i give her two.

The habitual motion doesn't have to be upward motion. Many times, on a layup, it's a dip. It's whatever habitual movement precedes the shot.

[APG]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Just throwing this out there, and the time of the whistle, it doesn't look like she had started a habitual shooting motion. Just picking up a dribble doesn't necessarily constitute a shooting motion.

NCAA-M is the only rule set where I wouldn't be giving the player shots.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by deecee

This is a shooting foul at the time of the whistle. It should have been a no-call and a patient whistle would have created that outcome.

Agree.

Originally Posted by deecee

EDIT: There is a traveling but it's very close and requires slo-mo. One that in real time will more than likely go missed.

If that is close, I'd love to see what it takes for it to not be close for you. To me, this one is pretty obvious, even at full speed and a horrible angle.

[APG]

Originally Posted by OKREF

NFHS. It is a shot if the player has started their "habitual shooting motion".

Rule 4.41.3 The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball.

To me it doesn't look like she starts her shot until after the whistle.

Rule 4-11-2 I think is the clearer reference to these plays:

If an opponent fouls after a player has started a try for goal, he/she is permitted to complete the customary arm movement, and if pivoting or stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball. These privileges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in flight.

As soon as the player ended her dribble, her arm movements and steps tell us she's started her shooting motion. If the contact by 15 is illegal, I would allow the offensive player the customary arm and foot movements involved while holding the ball.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by APG

Rule 4-11-2 I think is the clearer reference to these plays:

If an opponent fouls after a player has started a try for goal, he/she is permitted to complete the customary arm movement, and if pivoting or stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball. These privileges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in flight.

As soon as the player ended her dribble, her arm movements and steps tell us she's started her shooting motion. If the contact by 15 is illegal, I would allow the offensive player the customary arm and foot movements involved while holding the ball.

I get 4-11. However, she wasn't fouled after the start of her motion, she was fouled prior to any start of a motion. If she hasn't started her motion before the foul, I'm not awarding foul shots.