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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 10, 2015, 11:05pm
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Since the clock is not visible in either video, perhaps the T observed it not starting properly and used his visible count (good mechanic by him, especially since a 10-second count was not in play) to measure the remaining time rather than blow a frantic final play dead in mid-dribble/pass/shot.

So when/if THAT time ran out, he blew it dead, albeit uncomfortably late, given that it came well after the horn.

I guess the video is inconclusive after all. Apologies for popping off 2 posts earlier. What is not inconclusive is whether the release of the shot beat the horn.

Whether that horn signaled the end of a final sequence that began with a proper start we will likely never know, since video of such would surely have surfaced by now.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 11, 2015, 11:18am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
100% correct as there could be a rebounding foul while the ball is still live during the try. If IUgrad has already blown his whistle, people are going to ask what his whistle was for and how does that impact the subsequent foul call.
And all easily explainable to any coach Nevada, IF it were to get to that point. You are giving hypotheticals and I'm dealing with the play at hand. I personally did not 'make up' the mechanic I use for end of quarters, rather came from veteran HS, state level officials that I had as mentors when I first started. I'm not saying to anyone they have to do it my way, I'm just throwing it out there as an option, something to think about, maybe something to try.

IMO, had the T in the OP attempted to put a whistle to the horn, it could have possibly forced his cognitive side to come to the correct conclusion that the ball was clearly out of the shooter's hand at the time the horn sounded. Rather, it looks like perhaps he used the technique as espoused by you and BNR, which is completely fine. However, the end result for the T, at least in this particular circumstance, is that he got it wrong.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 12, 2015, 11:17am
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IUGrad if that is what is done in your area, then by all means blow your whistle when the horn goes. There is not one person that has replied that agrees with that "mechanic" as all it does is add confusion. The only time your whistle should coincide with the horn nm is if you are blowing the shot dead, otherwise, as has been stated previously, your whistle should not come until the try is good or is obvious it will be missed.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 12, 2015, 12:18pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texref View Post
IUGrad if that is what is done in your area, then by all means blow your whistle when the horn goes. There is not one person that has replied that agrees with that "mechanic" as all it does is add confusion. The only time your whistle should coincide with the horn nm is if you are blowing the shot dead, otherwise, as has been stated previously, your whistle should not come until the try is good or is obvious it will be missed.
As I believe it was stated earlier, the FED has not come forth with how a whistle should end a quarter, so what you state is your opinion for HS ball and I agree we all need to try to do things as they are done in our own respective areas.

I can just tell you that in 18+ years I have not had one case of added confusion. If anything it has only added clarity, as I've been a part of my fair share of 'buzzer beaters'/shots taken close to the horn, and I have never left the court with the confusion I see in the OP or with a coach still wondering why I counted the basket or why I waved it off. It just simply has never happened.

You have every right to add conjecture as to what 'might' happen with my "mechanic", but at the same time, I can give actual testimony of 18+ years of using it.

Maybe you would be willing to put your two cents as to why there was so much confusion at the end of this OP video and if you think it was the correct call?
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 12, 2015, 12:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IUgrad92 View Post
As I believe it was stated earlier, the FED has not come forth with how a whistle should end a quarter, so what you state is your opinion for HS ball and I agree we all need to try to do things as they are done in our own respective areas.

I can just tell you that in 18+ years I have not had one case of added confusion. If anything it has only added clarity, as I've been a part of my fair share of 'buzzer beaters'/shots taken close to the horn, and I have never left the court with the confusion I see in the OP or with a coach still wondering why I counted the basket or why I waved it off. It just simply has never happened.

You have every right to add conjecture as to what 'might' happen with my "mechanic", but at the same time, I can give actual testimony of 18+ years of using it.

Maybe you would be willing to put your two cents as to why there was so much confusion at the end of this OP video and if you think it was the correct call?
Just to be clear, if the ball leaves the shooter's hand before the horn sounds, you blow your whistle immediately when the horn sounds? As others have said, if that is acceptable in your area, do what works for you.

But I would encourage other readers here to NOT do that. I've worked in multiple states and multiple organizations and this would not be seen as an acceptable mechanic in any of them. I do not see any benefit from using this mechanic but see significant room for argument, questioning and confusion.

My approach is similar to BNR - if the ball is in the shooters hand at time of horn, blow the whistle immediately. If the ball has been released before the horn, wait until the ball has gone in or is clearly unsuccessful. Then blow the whistle. This is the expected mechanic everywhere I have worked.

There will always be the possibility of argument, but no one is confused by this sequence. Even in the video: No one is confused about the ruling; they question the accuracy of the call

Last edited by jpgc99; Thu Mar 12, 2015 at 12:39pm.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 12, 2015, 12:41pm
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We do it here the same as jpgc99 has described. I couldn't imagine hitting my whistle while a shot that would be counted is still in flight.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 12, 2015, 03:35pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy341a View Post
We do it here the same as jpgc99 has described. I couldn't imagine hitting my whistle while a shot that would be counted is still in flight.
So as an "off" official, you're not calling a foul off-ball (ie. hitting your whistle) while a shot is in flight? Of course you would because the whistle does not make the ball dead. Same philosophy applies my friend.....
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 12, 2015, 03:43pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy341a View Post
We do it here the same as jpgc99 has described. I couldn't imagine hitting my whistle while a shot that would be counted is still in flight.
The calling official in the OP did exactly as you prescribe and got the play wrong. All I am saying is that my "mechanic" may perhaps enhance and increase the probability of getting it right. Could you not conclude that the philosophy/technique/mechanic that the calling official used, did not work in this particular play, and in turn added confusion??
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 12, 2015, 03:54pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpgc99 View Post
Just to be clear, if the ball leaves the shooter's hand before the horn sounds, you blow your whistle immediately when the horn sounds? As others have said, if that is acceptable in your area, do what works for you.
Yes, because it adds clarity for me as to the location of ball at the time I blow my whistle. I believe it enhances cognitive awareness to what needs absolute attention, the location of the ball at the time the horn sounds. The mechanics I have chosen to use over the past 18+ years are for one reason only, to put myself in the best situation possible to get the play correct and I believe this particular one has never let me down and it has never left a coach (winning or losing) in a state of confusion.

The calling official waited a full second, if not longer, to blow his whistle after the horn, try for goal was over, and still waves it off??

Now THAT is added confusion....
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Last edited by IUgrad92; Thu Mar 12, 2015 at 03:59pm.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 12, 2015, 04:08pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IUgrad92 View Post
Yes, because it adds clarity for me as to the location of ball at the time I blow my whistle. I believe it enhances cognitive awareness to what needs absolute attention, the location of the ball at the time the horn sounds. The mechanics I have chosen to use over the past 18+ years are for one reason only, to put myself in the best situation possible to get the play correct and I believe this particular one has never let me down and it has never left a coach (winning or losing) in a state of confusion.

The calling official waited a full second, if not longer, to blow his whistle after the horn, try for goal was over, and still waves it off??

Now THAT is added confusion....
You're correct. I'm in my office and watched on mute. Blowing the whistle that late does add confusion. My mistake in reference to the video.

However, where the ball is when you blow your whistle has absolutely no bearing on the play. All that matters is the status of the ball when time expires. Your whistle is after the expiration of time so it really doesn't help you pinpoint the proper time.

The best practice is to have a mental count so that you are not caught off guard and can know where the ball is at the exact time of expiration. I always keep a mental count so that I am not surprised by the horn. In reality, I think your focus on blowing the whistle helps you because it keeps you focused on not being surprised by the horn. If that works for you, great. But from my experience this is not a mechanic that would be approved in many places. When in Rome...
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 12, 2015, 04:13pm
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Another When In Rome Situation ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by IUgrad92 View Post
Now THAT is added confusion....
And by that, are you talking about a rookie official observing you and comparing what you do on the court with what he is supposed to do according to the NFHS (or IAABO) Mechanics Manual he has in his hands?

Or, if this is another one of those "When in Rome" things, and if that's the case, then, by all means, continue doing it.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Mar 12, 2015 at 05:42pm.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 12, 2015, 08:56pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpgc99 View Post
However, where the ball is when you blow your whistle has absolutely no bearing on the play. All that matters is the status of the ball when time expires. Your whistle is after the expiration of time so it really doesn't help you pinpoint the proper time.
That's why I mentioned this is an earlier post.....
(Rule 1.14) "...... the audible timer's signal (i.e. horn) shall indicate that time has expired."

And it does help you pinpoint proper time, as long as you have reasonable time/end of quarter awareness. I've been doing it for many, many years, so I can only speak for my experience. Saying "it doesn't help you" is based on....................??
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 12, 2015, 09:01pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
And by that, are you talking about a rookie official observing you and comparing what you do on the court with what he is supposed to do according to the NFHS (or IAABO) Mechanics Manual he has in his hands?

Or, if this is another one of those "When in Rome" things, and if that's the case, then, by all means, continue doing it.
I thought it was said earlier in this thread by someone else that there is NO reference on how a whistle should be used to end a quarter. Nothing in the rule book, case book, or official's manual. Are you saying that you have something different from NFHS in this regard?
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 12, 2015, 10:11pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IUgrad92 View Post
As I believe it was stated earlier, the FED has not come forth with how a whistle should end a quarter, so what you state is your opinion for HS ball and I agree we all need to try to do things as they are done in our own respective areas.

I can just tell you that in 18+ years I have not had one case of added confusion. If anything it has only added clarity, as I've been a part of my fair share of 'buzzer beaters'/shots taken close to the horn, and I have never left the court with the confusion I see in the OP or with a coach still wondering why I counted the basket or why I waved it off. It just simply has never happened.
...
Doing it my way I've never had confusion either, so the early whistle procedure would have absolutely zero value added and only causes confusion in the places I work. I've done quite a few games where a partner blew the whistle while the shot was in the air and clearly released before time expired, and everyone thought that meant they were waving off the shot.

And there was no confusion in the OP, everyone knew he waved off the basket. Your procedure actually has absolutely nothing to do with what happened in the video.
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Last edited by Raymond; Thu Mar 12, 2015 at 10:21pm.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 12, 2015, 10:25pm
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