Illegal Dribble?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BigCat

First dribble ended. ball flipped to floor with spin. When the same player is the first to contact the ball--with anything---that turns the flip into a dribble. you are right..hitting the leg isn't a dribble. but that is what makes the flip a dribble.

Rule citation please.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Rule citation please.

4.15 something and 9.5. These are the plays where a player ends a dribble, then throws ball against official or opponents backboard. case play says doing either is another dribble "provided..he is first to touch it."

Here, tossing it to the floor after the first dribble ended...is another dribble "provided the player first to touch it.."

If another player touches it first, the flip to the floor becomes a pass.
that's how i get there.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BigCat

4.15 something and 9.5. These are the plays where a player ends a dribble, then throws ball against official or opponents backboard. case play says doing either is another dribble "provided..he is first to touch it."

Here, tossing it to the floor after the first dribble ended...is another dribble "provided the player first to touch it.."

If another player touches it first, the flip to the floor becomes a pass.
that's how i get there.

The case play where the dribbler bats the ball over the head of the opponent then runs around and touches it a second time specifically refers to a touch with the hands in order to have a violation. I would apply that same principle here.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The case play where the dribbler bats the ball over the head of the opponent then runs around and touches it a second time specifically refers to a touch with the hands in order to have a violation. I would apply that same principle here.

That is a separate specific violation. 4-15-2 says you can bat ball in air provided it strikes floor before hitting it again with hand. That play is just an example of that rule. The violation is from touching it again with the hand.

Here, a first dribble ended. you now are holding the ball. you throw it to the floor few feet ahead of you. What is that? Dribble rule says dribble starts by throwing ball to floor. doesnt say how far away etc. But it could be a pass...we dont know what it was until we see what happens next. If i touch it, i call the original throw to floor a pass. if you touch it before anyone else then i call it a dribble. That's the "provided he is first to touch it" in those case plays.

What i will say about the other play is that the rule writers said words "touched" and "hand" together there. They didnt in these plays i've mentioned. That says to me it is not limited to the hand in these. thx

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BigCat

That is a separate specific violation. 4-15-2 says you can bat ball in air provided it strikes floor before hitting it again with hand. That play is just an example of that rule. The violation is from touching it again with the hand.

Here, a first dribble ended. you now are holding the ball. you throw it to the floor few feet ahead of you. What is that? Dribble rule says dribble starts by throwing ball to floor. doesnt say how far away etc. But it could be a pass...we dont know what it was until we see what happens next. If i touch it, i call the original throw to floor a pass. if you touch it before anyone else then i call it a dribble. That's the "provided he is first to touch it" in those case plays.

What i will say about the other play is that the rule writers said words "touched" and "hand" together there. They didnt in these plays i've mentioned. That says to me it is not limited to the hand in these. thx

With regard to a dribble, I take it to mean touch as a positive action. This being as opposed to "touched or is touched by" as in a backcourt. I think in this case a dribble requires a deliberate touch of the ball.

Coach A yells to A1: "Come take the point." A2 stands holding the ball, having already used his dribble. A1 approaches. A2 drops the ball straight to the floor, to be picked up by A1. A2 starts to go one way, then changes direction and the ball brushes against his leg.

You would call this a violation?

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by just another ref

With regard to a dribble, I take it to mean touch as a positive action. This being as opposed to "touched or is touched by" as in a backcourt. I think in this case a dribble requires a deliberate touch of the ball.

Coach A yells to A1: "Come take the point." A2 stands holding the ball, having already used his dribble. A1 approaches. A2 drops the ball straight to the floor, to be picked up by A1. A2 starts to go one way, then changes direction and the ball brushes against his leg.

You would call this a violation?

I think it is a violation under the rules. When it hits his leg it makes the drop a dribble...maybe interrupted now because of the brush with the leg. We are trying to characterize the drop, not the touch.

Would I call it? A brush. no. If there was more contact like the OP I would have no problem calling it and explaining that when the player touched the ball first after throwing it or dropping it to the floor that constituted a second dribble....even though he didnt mean to be the first to touch it.

[Adam]

A dribble begins at the beginning, even if we don't know whether it's a dribble or a pass at first. Once a passer is the first to touch his pass, it's a dribble. Now, in Billy's play, it doesn't matter because it's going to be a violation whether you consider it a pass (backcourt) or a dribble (double dribble).

It is an interesting topic to consider whether you'd stick him for an illegal dribble if he did it in any other circumstance, but not in that thread. I think it's sufficiently different from the topic there that a new thread is in order.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BigCat

4.15 something and 9.5. These are the plays where a player ends a dribble, then throws ball against official or opponents backboard. case play says doing either is another dribble "provided..he is first to touch it."

4.15.4 SITUATION C: After dribbling and coming to a stop, A1 throws the ball: (a) against the opponent’s backboard and catches the rebound; (b) against an official, immediately recovers the ball and dribbles again; RULING: A1 has violated in both (a) and (b). Throwing the ball against the opponent’s backboard or an official constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the board.

Is there a difference between the ball touching you, and you touching the ball?