UNC/Duke (Video)

[Pantherdreams]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Not saying this is right, but I was thinking...

1. When the defender falls back early it kind of acts like an undercut of the shooter, which can be dangerous.

2. Falling back early makes the torso contact minimal, and minimal contact often doesn't result in a foul call.

So, as a result, a blocking foul on the defender should be called.

I hear this reasoning often, but as its not supported by the rules I just don't buy it. THe rules say that a player with lgp can move backwards. We are also expressly told they are alloud to protect themselves, even if this inlcludes movements that might normally be illegal (twisting or turning).

Requiring players to stand there and take "it" not only flys in the face of the rule, but in a culture much more sensitive to concussions and collisions in sport is esentially an officiating endorsement of punishing kids for not putting themselves at further risk.

If you want to no call it because the contact is now minimal and you don't feel they are disadvantaged I can live with that but calling a block is tantamount to saying I'm calling a foul because you are soft. And creates a much more physical and risky culture.

Now I'm not an NCAA officials and if my boss and colleagues all said "We are calling this block" then I would have to make that decision or judgement in that situation. In my current situation and by the standard the rules lay out. PC or no call.

[RefCT]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

I hear this reasoning often, but as its not supported by the rules I just don't buy it. THe rules say that a player with lgp can move backwards. We are also expressly told they are alloud to protect themselves, even if this inlcludes movements that might normally be illegal (twisting or turning).

Requiring players to stand there and take "it" not only flys in the face of the rule, but in a culture much more sensitive to concussions and collisions in sport is esentially an officiating endorsement of punishing kids for not putting themselves at further risk.

If you want to no call it because the contact is now minimal and you don't feel they are disadvantaged I can live with that but calling a block is tantamount to saying I'm calling a foul because you are soft. And creates a much more physical and risky culture.

Now I'm not an NCAA officials and if my boss and colleagues all said "We are calling this block" then I would have to make that decision or judgement in that situation. In my current situation and by the standard the rules lay out. PC or no call.

We are advised to call it a block because if he starts leaning back before contact, he lost verticality and is no longer has LGP. No different than if he had his arms extended and made contact. (I didn't watch the video - I am referring to a case where they start to fall backwards without contact - not moving backwards with their feet)

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by RefCT

We are advised to call it a block because if he starts leaning back before contact, he lost verticality and is no longer has LGP. No different than if he had his arms extended and made contact. (I didn't watch the video - I am referring to a case where they start to fall backwards without contact - not moving backwards with their feet)

Leaning back does not cause one to lose LGP. And, no, this is not anything like extending an arm and making contact.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by RefCT

We are advised to call it a block because if he starts leaning back before contact, he lost verticality and is no longer has LGP. No different than if he had his arms extended and made contact. (I didn't watch the video - I am referring to a case where they start to fall backwards without contact - not moving backwards with their feet)

and we are told defender cannot move in any direction except vertically before contact. they made a point to say this when they changed the block/charge rule from last year's fiasco.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by RefCT

We are advised to call it a block because if he starts leaning back before contact, he lost verticality and is no longer has LGP.

Interesting interpretation of the LGP rule.

Wrong, but interesting.

Originally Posted by BigCat

and we are told defender cannot move in any direction except vertically before contact. they made a point to say this when they changed the block/charge rule from last year's fiasco.

Also a wrong interpretation of the rule. Players may always move backwards after gaining LGP. In fact, the only direction of movement that costs them their LGP is towards the ball handler.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Adam

Also a wrong interpretation of the rule. Players may always move backwards after gaining LGP. In fact, the only direction of movement that costs them their LGP is towards the ball handler.

Actually, I heard the same thing in one of my preseason clinics.

[ballgame99]

Most definitely a foul on that screen; the screen looks fine but the blatant holding of the help defender is a foul. Nicely disguised though.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Adam

Interesting interpretation of the LGP rule.

Wrong, but interesting.



Also a wrong interpretation of the rule. Players may always move backwards after gaining LGP. In fact, the only direction of movement that costs them their LGP is towards the ball handler.

No Adam, It's not wrong. It was approved in June by the NCAA oversight panel. If you are attempting to draw a charge on a pass or shot you must be in position before contact occurs and you cannot move in ANY DIRECTION before contact occurs.(except vertically).

and i don't have the time for it until after the season but id like to have a conversation about lgp/rules v how the game has been played for years, and years etc.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Adam

Interesting interpretation of the LGP rule.

Wrong, but interesting.



Also a wrong interpretation of the rule. Players may always move backwards after gaining LGP. In fact, the only direction of movement that costs them their LGP is towards the ball handler.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Actually, I heard the same thing in one of my preseason clinics.

Originally Posted by BigCat

No Adam, It's not wrong. It was approved in June by the NCAA oversight panel. If you are attempting to draw a charge on a pass or shot you must be in position before contact occurs and you cannot move in ANY DIRECTION before contact occurs.(except vertically).

and i don't have the time for it until after the season but id like to have a conversation about lgp/rules v how the game has been played for years, and years etc.

Someone may have said it, but it is still wrong. A defender can ALWAYS legally move away from the point of contact. There is absolutely no rule support even close to saying otherwise. Whoever is saying it is making stuff up. Just because some number of officials have called it wrong for years and years doesn't make it right.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Someone may have said it, but it is still wrong. A defender can ALWAYS legally move away from the point of contact. There is absolutely no rule support even close to saying otherwise. Whoever is saying it is making stuff up. Just because some number of officials have called it wrong for years and years doesn't make it right.

When I say I heard it, I heard it in some form of context from the NCAA. I remember being taken aback about it, as it was just sort of glossed over. I believe I even brought it up here in a thread before the season started.

However, the preseason slides from Art Hyland contain the followin text concerning 4-17-4:

"If defender establishes legal guarding position before shooter becomes airborne, defender may jump straight in the air or move backwards"

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Someone may have said it, but it is still wrong. A defender can ALWAYS legally move away from the point of contact. There is absolutely no rule support even close to saying otherwise. Whoever is saying it is making stuff up. Just because some number of officials have called it wrong for years and years doesn't make it right.

The NCAA oversight panel has said it. There in charge. They get to make "stuff up." It was recommended and approved. You will see it in the next rule book.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by RefCT

We are advised to call it a block because if he starts leaning back before contact, he lost verticality and is no longer has LGP. No different than if he had his arms extended and made contact. (I didn't watch the video - I am referring to a case where they start to fall backwards without contact - not moving backwards with their feet)

Originally Posted by BigCat

No Adam, It's not wrong. It was approved in June by the NCAA oversight panel. If you are attempting to draw a charge on a pass or shot you must be in position before contact occurs and you cannot move in ANY DIRECTION before contact occurs.(except vertically).

Y'all do realize that if an offensive player runs over the defender it is possible for the foul to be on that offensive player even if the defender never had LGP at all, don't you?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BigCat

and we are told defender cannot move in any direction except vertically before contact. they made a point to say this when they changed the block/charge rule from last year's fiasco.

I think the NCAA corrected their communications. I attended my clinics late September/early October. The video and slides on Arbiter are dated mid November.