false double foul question/ and block/charge

[mutantducky]

ehhh....Had this a few days ago. I guess I had a chance to call one and I passed. Doh!
A1 drives the lane, gets fouled by B1 on the arm, and then right after commits a charging.
I called the defensive foul and I heard a fan go "what about the charge" and by golly that fan was right (which they usually are as us refs know)
I had it as a non-shooting foul. But if I had called it, do I just do the double foul motion? and then POI on the endline. The first foul clearly came first but I could have called both.
Another weird play I had was with the offensive player on a drive. The defender is a bit late. So I'm set to call a block. But the offensive play looses his balance a bit, and is forced to slow, and in doing so kind of leans in and makes a move with his shoulder where I could have called an offensive foul. I find those calls a bit tough to call. The offensive player is making an aggressive move. He is trying to draw contact but the defender isn't set. Sometimes they can be clear offensive fouls but this was was really borderline.
After I was thinking that I could have called a blarge (one ref!) but honestly that's what it was. Two basically simultaneous fouls one by the offensive player and one by the defender for not being in LGP. It was really hard to tell what came first, it seemed to be that there was the illegal contact by the defender and then the shoulder came in to clear the defender. It was a no-win situation for sure. But at the same time I did think, why not call it like the first situation. I know it is easier to call a block or a charge but I could have called a double foul.

[Adam]

If it's a non-shooting foul, then the first foul causes the ball to become dead. The ensuing contact would be ignored unless intentional or flagrant.

DEFENDER DOES NOT NEED TO BE SET.

If the defender was not in LGP and/or was moving towards the dribbler at contact, then it's a block. A lowered shoulder does not change this 99% of the time.

[mutantducky]

for the first one
If it was a shooting attempt, I could technically call both right?
have A1 shoot the fts with the lane clear and give the ball back to B.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by mutantducky

for the first one
If it was a shooting attempt, I could technically call both right?
have A1 shoot the fts with the lane clear and give the ball back to B.

You could. You'd likely be the first to ever do it.
Anywhere.

[deecee]

If you single handedly would call a blarge then I don't know what to say.

Also on your first stitch, theoretically it can be debated, but in real life this doesn't happen. You would also have a dead ball contact foul that would be a T, unless the ball is in flight, then you have a false double, and a cluster @#$@#$ that is usually avoided at all levels.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by deecee

If you single handedly would call a blarge then I don't know what to say.

Also on your first stitch, theoretically it can be debated, but in real life this doesn't happen. You would also have a dead ball contact foul that would be a T, unless the ball is in flight, then you have a false double, and a cluster @#$@#$ that is usually avoided at all levels.

Yep.

If the defensive foul causes the charge, call the defensive foul.
If it clearly doesn't, I'd likely go with the charge.

If I can't tell, I'm probably going with the first foul.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by mutantducky

ehhh....Had this a few days ago. I guess I had a chance to call one and I passed. Doh!
A1 drives the lane, gets fouled by B1 on the arm, and then right after commits a charging.
I called the defensive foul and I heard a fan go "what about the charge" and by golly that fan was right (which they usually are as us refs know)
I had it as a non-shooting foul. But if I had called it, do I just do the double foul motion? and then POI on the endline. The first foul clearly came first but I could have called both.
Another weird play I had was with the offensive player on a drive. The defender is a bit late. So I'm set to call a block. But the offensive play looses his balance a bit, and is forced to slow, and in doing so kind of leans in and makes a move with his shoulder where I could have called an offensive foul. I find those calls a bit tough to call. The offensive player is making an aggressive move. He is trying to draw contact but the defender isn't set. Sometimes they can be clear offensive fouls but this was was really borderline.
After I was thinking that I could have called a blarge (one ref!) but honestly that's what it was. Two basically simultaneous fouls one by the offensive player and one by the defender for not being in LGP. It was really hard to tell what came first, it seemed to be that there was the illegal contact by the defender and then the shoulder came in to clear the defender. It was a no-win situation for sure. But at the same time I did think, why not call it like the first situation. I know it is easier to call a block or a charge but I could have called a double foul.

In another post, you said, "I did a CG the other night and...."

Seriously? Who hired you?

[mutantducky]

what are you talking about? I just said I did a CG call but was wondering when it would end, head/shoulders or ball in front. The one I made was an easy call. When the player is dribbling up the side and the defender is parallel it can be a tough one to call.


The first example can be a tough play to rule and it would be strange to call both fouls. I don't think I have. But I think it is reasonable to see it as part of one play especially if a player picks up the ball for the drive, gets fouled, takes another step and commits a charge. It is one play. Why would you ignore the charge? If I had that in a game, I think it would be silly if you ignore the charge and let's say it was a shot. the player scores despite committing a charge just because it happened he got fouled on the arm a tenth of a second before the charge. So to repeat. He is clearly fouled by the defense going for a shot. So right now you have a two shot foul. Maybe you haven't even blown your whistle yet, because right after, the player in completing the shot commits a charge. The ball goes in. Are you shooting the And 1? I think clearing the lane and shooting two fts could be the better option and a more sensible one. If it is a tool we can use,why not do it other than that it is so unusual. Like that ref who called that Colgate/Belmont violation. He made an unusual call but he did it by rule.

And by the way CC- I only called two Tech's this whole season(not one on a coach as I never had any serious issues with them and have had several coaches tell me and my partners that we were the best refs they had all season. I had two coaches who had the best JV teams in the league specially request me and another person I ref with to work the game they played against each other at the end of the season because they like the way we do things so I guess I'm doing pretty good.

[deecee]

Go ahead be the first to make this call. I don't think anyone here cares. It will be a first, and if caught on video, probably the last.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by mutantducky

what are you talking about? I just said I did a CG call but was wondering when it would end, head/shoulders or ball in front. The one I made was an easy call. When the player is dribbling up the side and the defender is parallel it can be a tough one to call.


The first example can be a tough play to rule and it would be strange to call both fouls. I don't think I have. But I think it is reasonable to see it as part of one play especially if a player picks up the ball for the drive, gets fouled, takes another step and commits a charge. It is one play. Why would you ignore the charge? If I had that in a game, I think it would be silly if you ignore the charge and let's say it was a shot. the player scores despite committing a charge just because it happened he got fouled on the arm a tenth of a second before the charge. So to repeat. He is clearly fouled by the defense going for a shot. So right now you have a two shot foul. Maybe you haven't even blown your whistle yet, because right after, the player in completing the shot commits a charge. The ball goes in. Are you shooting the And 1? I think clearing the lane and shooting two fts could be the better option and a more sensible one. If it is a tool we can use,why not do it other than that it is so unusual. Like that ref who called that Colgate/Belmont violation. He made an unusual call but he did it by rule.

And by the way CC- I only called two Tech's this whole season(not one on a coach as I never had any serious issues with them and have had several coaches tell me and my partners that we were the best refs they had all season. I had two coaches who had the best JV teams in the league specially request me and another person I ref with to work the game they played against each other at the end of the season because they like the way we do things so I guess I'm doing pretty good.

I owe you an apology. I thought CG = college game. I misread your post.

[mutantducky]

ok thx

But deecee

Why? Why not call it if the admittedly very unusual situation calls for it. Normally there is no issue when you call the first and ignore the second because you can separate them. But I genuinely had a play where it could have been called and I felt it would have been the most fair thing to do. Again, back to my point. Let's say there is three seconds left in the game. Coaches and fans are really into it.
A1 drives, gets fouled on the arm but as he completes his shot he commits a charge. So this is all one offensive play when the player had started his shot attempt. He makes the basket to put his team within one point. You have one Coach screaming for a charge. Are you going to just ignore the charging call and let the player shoot the FT to tie the game? You guys seem to be saying I should ignore the charge because no one would actually call both fouls. That just doesn't make sense at all to me. Why reward the offensive player with a potential three point play when he had to commit a charge to get the shot off?

Let me add a scenario to this. Say you do have two fouls, so you are doing two shots with the lane cleared then B's ball. But the charge means it is A1 fifth foul. Does A1 shoot or does the coach of Team A get to choose a substitute to shoot the fts?

[APG]

Does the rule book ever allow for a player that is supposed to be DQ'd to attempt their free throws prior to being replaced (assuming proper notification)?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by mutantducky

ok thx

But deecee

Why? Why not call it if the admittedly very unusual situation calls for it. Normally there is no issue when you call the first and ignore the second because you can separate them. But I genuinely had a play where it could have been called and I felt it would have been the most fair thing to do. Again, back to my point. Let's say there is three seconds left in the game. Coaches and fans are really into it.
A1 drives, gets fouled on the arm but as he completes his shot he commits a charge. So this is all one offensive play when the player had started his shot attempt. He makes the basket to put his team within one point. You have one Coach screaming for a charge. Are you going to just ignore the charging call and let the player shoot the FT to tie the game? You guys seem to be saying I should ignore the charge because no one would actually call both fouls. That just doesn't make sense at all to me. Why reward the offensive player with a potential three point play when he had to commit a charge to get the shot off?

Let me add a scenario to this. Say you do have two fouls, so you are doing two shots with the lane cleared then B's ball. But the charge means it is A1 fifth foul. Does A1 shoot or does the coach of Team A get to choose a substitute to shoot the fts?

4.19.9 Situation A It's in the books. I've never seen this called. I've seen it once when it should have been called.

[deecee]

I know this is in the case book. I don't know in real life if this would actually get called.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by APG

Does the rule book ever allow for a player that is supposed to be DQ'd to attempt their free throws prior to being replaced (assuming proper notification)?

No. Why? (maybe I missed something in the thread)