Can Refs Help Improve Youth Play (Videos)

[ccrroo]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

And now I've seen 5 videos and all I see is a bunch of sloppy 7th grade basketball. Still haven't seen a play where I would say "OMG, he really missed that".

Coach, have any parents sent you any videos asking why you are running certain plays? Or showing how well their kid plays, but you are still not giving them enough playing time? I'm asking this seriously.

That's really why I started this thread. It's sloppy 7th grade basketball exacerbated by lots of what looks like illegal contact. If the illegal contact were reduced, we would get less sloppy basketball.

I'm the assistant coach so parents may not come to me about our coaching ability or playing time. But I don't think they have approached the head coach. They did come to me today and commented on why so many fouls weren't being called. I told them that I was getting feedback that they weren't fouls. So we are all learning.

I also told them we are significantly de-emphasizing the charge. And emphasizing the style of play we've been seeing. Less emphasis on moving feet and more emphasis on going for the ball.

In video 1, we have a 7th grade kid that is trying to maintain his position against an offensive player that is out of control. He his punished (rightfully so).
In the videos 2-5, we have defenders creating contact with the offense in attempt to get the ball. And they are rewarded.
That's the perfect formula for sloppy 7th grade basketball.
And that's what we should teach.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by ccrroo

That's really why I started this thread. It's sloppy 7th grade basketball exacerbated by lots of what looks like illegal contact. If the illegal contact were reduced, we would get less sloppy basketball.

I'm the assistant coach so parents may not come to me about our coaching ability or playing time. But I don't think they have approached the head coach. They did come to me today and commented on why so many fouls weren't being called. I told them that I was getting feedback that they weren't fouls. So we are all learning.

I also told them we are significantly de-emphasizing the charge. And emphasizing the style of play we've been seeing. Less emphasis on moving feet and more emphasis on going for the ball.

In video 1, we have a 7th grade kid that is trying to maintain his position against an offensive player that is out of control. He his punished (rightfully so).
In the videos 2-5, we have defenders creating contact with the offense in attempt to get the ball. And they are rewarded.
That's the perfect formula for sloppy 7th grade basketball.
And that's what we should teach.

Let's focus on 2. How exactly is the defender rewarded?

You really don't understand what a properly officiated play involves. It's not a mechanism to teach kids the right way or wrong way to play defense. If there's contact...if the ball comes out...it's a foul. If RSBQ is affected, it's a foul. Your player is protected against disadvantage.

[JeffM]

Coach,

You have come to a good place to ask these questions.

Some officials considers themselves "teachers" and want to teach the players how to play. Other officials consider their role to just be an official.

I recommend that you find Billy Mac's list of Most Misunderstood Rules. Most officials know these rules, but some don't know them all.

I agree with your assessment on both of these plays, but I wanted to provide an explanation for why those calls might have been made.

At a 7th grade level, I suspect that the officials aren't getting paid that much money and are relatively low on the totem pole.

In the first play, the key to drawing a charge is to establish Legal Guarding Position. However, that is not what television announcers talk about when they explain the block/charge rule. Announcers spout nonsense for drawing a charge such as "he has to be set" and "he can't already be falling down when he is hit". Many listeners, including some officials, will believe this. Although not required by rule, the defender is much more likely to draw the charge if he doesn't move once he has established Legal Guarding Position.

The defender was falling down, did move laterally, and did appear to protect himself. While he is allowed to do these things, some officials won't call a charge under any of these circumstances.

Officials can also be caught off-guard. If there hasn't been a block/charge call all game, he may not have been ready for it. The official may have been closely watching the offensive player and not seen the defender establish Legal Guarding Position and didn't really notice him until just before contact..

In the second play, the official might have seen the contact and decided that the foul didn't need to be called since the ball handler maintained possession. Some officials might have considered calling that foul a "game interruptor".

From a coaching standpoint, I would teach my players not to even attempt to draw a charge if they are in foul trouble simply because there is no guarantee that it will be called a charge. If you decide to point out the foul in the second play, don't use the term "reaching" (since "reaching" without contacting the opponent is not a foul.)

[ccrroo]

Thanks JeffM. Helpful stuff.

Not ever having officiated a real game, I'm at a huge disadvantage and ignorant. I'm also biased for my team. But when I review the video, I see so much contact. And when contact is called, it then seems so random. But it must not be. I must just not understand the nuances. And if I don't understand, I can't help the players.

I think we are done teaching the charge. The risk to reward is just too dang high. It seems much better to slap at the ball when the offense exposes it. That's just not called very often.

What's the correct way to say "reaching in and contacting the offense"?

[ccrroo]

3 more (if you like videos):

video 3:
What I saw - defender grabbed dribbler's shoulder
What did the ref see? (because it was a no call)
http://youtu.be/-zZ_SEwNWz0?list=UUZ...wLS23U8UlnYbFg



video 4:
What I saw - first defender went straight through the dribbler and hit his body;
What the ref saw? Foul on defender 2 on the grab. (maybe not the correct terminolgy)
http://youtu.be/gDyXV-z05Vs



video 5:
What I saw: first defender initates contact with offense; trips him and grabs his arm; second defender grabs his arm.
What did the ref see? (because it was a no call)
http://youtu.be/9nT8sDot2Ck

[ccrroo]

APG
Thanks for the 4 absolutes. That's helpful and I will teach those (and pass along to parents).

Can you comment on why the defender in video 2 can not be in position and create contact with the offense. And why in the video 1 the defender can't try to maintain his position as the offense runs over him?

[JeffM]

Coach,

I would refer the parents to the list of most misunderstood rules.

I don't think I would send them to this website unless they are especially interested. I think it is great that you want a better understanding of how the game is officiated.

I have coached a lot of youth sports (dozens of seasons of basketball, baseball, softball, and soccer).

Your parents should know that officials want to call the game fairly.

Your players should know that officials want to call the game fairly.

Your coaches should know that officials want to call the game fairly.

A lot of players would play better if they didn't worry about the officials. They get mad at the officials, lose focus and then don't play as well. Fans allow their anger at officials to take away from their enjoyment of the game, and more importantly, how they support their child.

Players and coaches use officials as an excuse to lose and then don't give maximum effort.

It might help if you consider officials to be sort of like policemen. Society wants policemen to prevent all of the murders, assaults, and robbery. But, I don't think society wants the policeman to pull over someone who is driving 57 in a 55. At a stop sign with no other cars in sight, is it ok if the driver stops a little in front of the line and doesn't come to a complete stop, but slows to 1 mph?

Another analogy is parenting. Should parents tolerate any misbehavior from their children or give a punishment for every single misbehavior? Different parents have different thresholds.

Officiating at the middle school level requires a lot of judgement.

[JeffM]

I would still teach the charge, but not expect it to be called correctly every time.

Anything that looks like a foul could be called a foul. Reaching up looks less like a foul than slapping down.

Instead of saying "reaching", say "hitting" or "fouling" or "contacting".

If the defender is continually placing one hand on the ball handler, say "handcheck".

Instead of saying "over the back" say "displacing" (with the understanding that it is ok to reach over another player as long as there is no displacement)

Play 1: Charge

Play 2: Nothing

Play 3: Foul

Play 4: Foul on 2nd defender

Play 5: Foul on 2nd defender

[ccrroo]

AremRed -
It almost seems like the dribbler isn't protected as much as the shooter? Because if that much contact is made on a shot, it seems like a foul is usually called (video 4 and 5).

Or maybe another way to ask it is. On plays 4 and 5, are you saying no foul because no harm was done (ie. the dribbler didn't lose the ball in that instance). If the defender had taken the ball, would it still be a no foul. Again, its seem like that amount of contact on a shooter would create a call.

[ccrroo]

JeffM,

I used to be an "over the back" guy but a forum like this taught me better a few years ago. Those others are good, too.

Our failure to success ratio on charges is about 10:1 so I think we are shutting it down until something changes (we learn to teach it better or the kids develop more).

Though, I think they are athletic enough to attack/disrupt the dribbler like is shown in several videos, so our time might be better spent working on that. My mistake for not teaching that style (as I thought they were fouls).

Thanks.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JeffM

I recommend that you find Billy Mac's list of Most Misunderstood Rules.

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...4-version.html

[Bad Zebra]

To ccrroo...kudos to you for coming here to seek advice and answers. Most youth coaches don't care enough to go to such lengths to get (correct) answers.
You are getting excellent advice from a goldmine of experienced and talented basketball officials.

The broader view...you should approach the leadership of your league and calmly and diplomatically suggest that they contract with officals who are experienced and agree to "teach". You have heard from those here that don't see their role as teacher at your level. I can assure you there are just as many of us are willing to teach young players (and coaches) during games. I got my start in youth rec ball and I will still gladly do it on occasion. If your league is clear about the experience and expectations, they will likely get officials better suited to the leagues needs. Clear communication UP FRONT is the key with any assigner. He or she knows which individuals would accept the role of teacher or trainer and which ones won't. Obviously, it's going to cost a little more but I contend that it will be worth it...less frustration among players, coaches, and parents.

[Raymond]

Without looking at your videos I'll start out asking you what level of quality do expect for the level of basketball being played?

I can't answer what some random officials on video were thinking because I've never spoke to them.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Without looking at your videos I'll start out asking you what level of quality do expect for the level of basketball being played?

I can't answer what some random officials on video were thinking because I've never spoke to them.

Ok, now I've watched the videos.

1) Whether this is a PC or Block, it is not something I would put under the banner of "what was he thinking!?", as if it was some egregious call.

2) If this were a newer official and I was observing his game, I would commend him for his patience in letting the play continue and not stopping the game with an unnecessary whistle.