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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 28, 2015, 10:30am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich View Post


Again, how the HELL is this reaching across?

The defender is coming from behind and it's an opportunity for the T/C to come in with a foul if there is one and the L doesn't get it, but this is the L's primary. I don't see him calling across 2 lines here.
When the play started, Lead was past the edge of the opposite lane line. As the block occurs, he has traveled to the edge of the lane "pinching the paint" and more or less standing under the action. I contend that the C has a better view as he is (assumed to be) stationary looking into the play. The lead is moving as he makes the call....at least that's my analysis of the video. If you disagree that it's a reach, fine. Bottom line...there's no foul there.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 28, 2015, 10:44am
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Originally Posted by Bad Zebra View Post
When the play started, Lead was past the edge of the opposite lane line. As the block occurs, he has traveled to the edge of the lane "pinching the paint" and more or less standing under the action. I contend that the C has a better view as he is (assumed to be) stationary looking into the play. The lead is moving as he makes the call....at least that's my analysis of the video. If you disagree that it's a reach, fine. Bottom line...there's no foul there.
I'm just trying to lay to rest the notion that this is reaching across the paint.

Reaching across means that the L is making a call outside the paint on the other side -- across 2 lines. In the lane, the L is primary. Doesn't mean the T/C stop working and get what's evident from their positions.

I'm not bothered by the L's positioning. He's moving, sure, but not exactly running in transition. He's closed down when the "foul" occurs -- he might have a better look being a step wider, actually.

The best part of 3-person is that you can trust the C/T to get the ones from behind if you don't get a great look, rather than guess through bodies. When my T/C come in with a foul, I always think (1) thank you and (2) could I have done something differently to get that one myself?
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 28, 2015, 10:52am
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Ouch,

State final guy too.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 28, 2015, 12:08pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich View Post
In the lane, the L is primary.
I don't know about your three-person coverage diagram but mine shows Lead's primary ending in the middle of the lane. Both players in the video are on the far side of the basket ring from Lead, making this C's primary. Thus, Lead should not be calling across the lane and reaching into C's primary.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 28, 2015, 12:54pm
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This is just an unfortunate call. The pinch of the paint actually resulted in a worse angle than if he had stayed, C looking right at it, L assumed illegal contact had occurred when the defender was actually vertical. Great block.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 28, 2015, 01:54pm
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Originally Posted by fullor30 View Post
Ouch,

State final guy too.
And in Illinois, this means exactly what? Certainly not the best officials the state has to offer. Many of the guys working the state tournament here are doing so as lifetime achievement awards. That is usually why they are 5+ years past their prime, can no longer run, and are 25+ pounds over weight.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 28, 2015, 02:20pm
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Originally Posted by johnny d View Post
And in Illinois, this means exactly what? Certainly not the best officials the state has to offer. Many of the guys working the state tournament here are doing so as lifetime achievement awards. That is usually why they are 5+ years past their prime, can no longer run, and are 25+ pounds over weight.
I even think that is a little overstated.

This was a 2A State Final in 2009. That means that most of the teams are from these smaller, rural areas in our state. Most officials in the biggest area of officiating or the most trained part of the state (I know I grew up in Macomb), almost never works games at that level. I know when I lived in Central Illinois, I never had the bigger schools and when I moved to the suburbs, I had to adjust to the talent level that I was seeing at the Sophomore level compared to the varsity basketball I had previously worked.

In this particular game that I clipped, one team played in a conference where almost every school is a 3A-4A school and playing in the playoffs is mostly a cake walk. I will say this is similar to Hales or Seton who have won titles in these smaller classes, but did so playing teams they would never see at any tournament or regular season game during the year. But when the playoffs come they play teams smaller and less talented in the post season. The other team was a small rural town, but had a future NBA player on their roster. I would bet that this was probably the best talented two teams these guys had seen all year. And fast forward to what happened in 2A in 2012 and the fiasco that made national news that occurred that State Final Tournament, again not a single Chicago area official worked in that State Finals at all or even from an area like Peoria or the Quad Cities.

This kind of play we are discussing is common with teams that play above the rim. There are multiple players that can block shots like this and they are not 7 feet tall either. I think this was about experience with those players more than anything. I do not feel it is about their age as much. There are guys that can keep up much better in the 3A-4A State Finals and are not passed their time. Of course the system has guys that have been in the system a long time and might not be where they were 5 or 10 years ago, but that is the case in any system IMO. I would rather have someone wait and be ready for that moment, then get there really early and piss in their pants not having had a game of that magnitude until the State Finals. This situation was just an official anticipating a call without seeing the whole play IMO.

Peace
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 28, 2015, 02:42pm
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Originally Posted by AremRed View Post
"And that kids is why you don't call across the lane as Lead!"
+1

My thoughts exactly as I am watching the video. He was screened out by the shooter on a play the C would be all over if something was there. Poor whistle....
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 28, 2015, 02:46pm
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Originally Posted by Rich View Post
Reaching across means that the L is making a call outside the paint on the other side -- across 2 lines. In the lane, the L is primary.
In my region, and according to the IAABO high school and NCAA-W manuals, the Lead's primary ends in the middle of the lane, and "reaching across" means calling on the Center's side of that lane and/or outside "across two lines."

This is close, and the Lead does appear to have a patient whistle, which is how I typically pregame the Lead calling on the Center's side of the lane or more: Give the Center the first shot at a foul that is absolutely there, then if they don't call it, and it needs to be called, get it with a cadence whistle a beat later.

All of that being said, in this particular play, incorrect call, etc. etc.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 28, 2015, 02:47pm
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Originally Posted by johnny d View Post
And in Illinois, this means exactly what? Certainly not the best officials the state has to offer. Many of the guys working the state tournament here are doing so as lifetime achievement awards. That is usually why they are 5+ years past their prime, can no longer run, and are 25+ pounds over weight.
Don't forget that there ratings were riding in the mid 90's when we could rate one another. I know some officials whose ratings went down in the low 70's, as soon as, the coaches rating became the only metric. That tells you something.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 28, 2015, 03:14pm
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Originally Posted by j51969 View Post
Don't forget that there ratings were riding in the mid 90's when we could rate one another. I know some officials whose ratings went down in the low 70's, as soon as, the coaches rating became the only metric. That tells you something.
All that tells you is that different officials are better at brown nosing coaches than others. There will be some who's ratings do reflect actual ability. However, some coach's ratings, while you'd like to think reflect true ability, do no such thing. It creates a conflict of interest in that it provides an incentive for officials to make decisions based on ratings. Some officials do that and get better ratings while officials that are not afraid to take care of business may get lower ratings.

Officials ratings are also not necessarily any more accurate.

But, when you combine the two in the appropriate ratio, the anomalies of one are somewhat canceled out by the anomalies of the other.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 28, 2015, 03:29pm
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Originally Posted by j51969 View Post
Don't forget that there ratings were riding in the mid 90's when we could rate one another. I know some officials whose ratings went down in the low 70's, as soon as, the coaches rating became the only metric. That tells you something.
Ratings were changed because you had a complete drop off in the overall numbers of ratings. Heck I went from 98 percentile in both levels and feel 5 or 6 percentile points when officials stopped rating. The more ratings you have regardless of the type of rating, the better you will be percentile wise.

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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 28, 2015, 03:35pm
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Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
All that tells you is that different officials are better at brown nosing coaches than others. There will be some who's ratings do reflect actual ability. However, some coach's ratings, while you'd like to think reflect true ability, do no such thing. It creates a conflict of interest in that it provides an incentive for officials to make decisions based on ratings. Some officials do that and get better ratings while officials that are not afraid to take care of business may get lower ratings.

Officials ratings are also not necessarily any more accurate.

But, when you combine the two in the appropriate ratio, the anomalies of one are somewhat canceled out by the anomalies of the other.
And it did not matter. Ratings did not determine your assignments here. It was a very small percentage of the consideration. We have an overall Power Rating that the top score is 40 and and coaches ratings only factor into 5 points of that number. Basically an official that has never worked a State Finals, will never have a 40 until they work a State Finals. And even then that is not a guarantee.

The bottom line people worry too much about coach's ratings. I have never cared about those ratings and I am doing just fine in playoff assignments. There is so much that is considered than ratings people just do not like to admit that is a fact around here.

Peace
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 28, 2015, 03:37pm
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While I don't believe the call to be correct, I don't really believe he is calling "across the lane." The defender leaves the floor partially in his primary. The farthest either player is from his primary when the play begins is perhaps a couple of feet. The both land in his primary. The play is near him with not a terrible angle, although it would have been better had he not pinched. He anticipated and made a bad call but I think it's a stretch to say he shouldn't have the option of having a whistle here.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 28, 2015, 05:53pm
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Good block, as the lead I try to leave the stuff up high to the slot and trail
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