Traveling Violation - Coaching Points (VIDEO)

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref

*Regardless of what you think and/or what type of 'coaching' you have provided [or been privy to] it does not change the fact that the majority of reasonable and experienced refs will have "nothing" when they observe this maneuver. The practical advice to the query coach was simple and clear in this case: expect that 1 out of 10 times this will be called a travel so learn to cope with it and play through it. Most successful coaches recognize this.

Now, although the 'sample size" is limited [and I will concede skewed], if you just go back and calculate respondents to this thread: the % who had "nothing" compared to the % who had "travel"--the % who had "nothing" is greater. Not that this makes it a 'non-travel', but rather underscores {no pun intended} the essential point of my post. Thanks for clarifying.

My unofficial count of posters in this thread is 8 officials say travel with 8 saying no violation. So I'm disputing your contention that the percentage of posters who had nothing is greater.

And I think to say that the "majority of reasonable and experienced officials will have nothing" on this play is entirely off base and definitely not a "fact". The coach cited it being called around 10% of the time normally but much more in this particular game. That but could be the result of the level of officiating and what officials want to call at that level of play. And maybe the guy who called it more frequently was a more experienced official. I guess your advice is fine if his kids are going to stay at this level forever and with this level of officiating and he is happy with this move resulting in a turnover anywhere from 10 to 50% of the time.

The coach, however, specifically asked what he can do to help his player understand why this is called and improve his technique. In this context, your advice is horrible IMO. And I stand by that as both a former coach and a current official.

There seems to be some dispute amongst posters here about when the gather occurs and that is the reason for the split in whether its a travel or not. But there really should be no argument that if the kid lands on both feet there is no violation. So as BNR suggested and as I seconded based on my experiences with people who coach this game at a high level---Its pretty simple advice to a coach looking to improve his kids technique that he should be teaching him to land on two feet. That is a "classic jump stop." What we see in this video is NOT. And that's why it will be called a violation with varying degrees of frequency.

[Kansas Ref]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

The coach, however, specifically asked what he can do to help his player understand why this is called and improve his technique. In this context, your advice is horrible IMO. And I stand by that as both a former coach and a current official.

There seems to be some dispute amongst posters here about when the gather occurs and that is the reason for the split in whether its a travel or not. But there really should be no argument that if the kid lands on both feet there is no violation. So as BNR suggested and as I seconded based on my experiences with people who coach this game at a high level---Its pretty simple advice to a coach looking to improve his kids technique that he should be teaching him to land on two feet. That is a "classic jump stop." What we see in this video is NOT. And that's why it will be called a violation with varying degrees of frequency.

*This will be my final comment to this thread because the "coach" that originated it has evidently gleaned all of the advice from us refs as indicated by the fact that s/he is no longer posting to this thread. But from the tenor of your comments I percieve that your intentions in continuing to post on it are to "lock horns" with me instead of addressing the central issue at hand, thus you have spun the thread into irrelevance and impracticality.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref

*This will be my final comment to this thread because the "coach" that originated it has evidently gleaned all of the advice from us refs as indicated by the fact that s/he is no longer posting to this thread. But from the tenor of your comments I percieve that your intentions in continuing to post on it are to "lock horns" with me instead of addressing the central issue at hand, thus you have spun the thread into irrelevance and impracticality.

You can spin it however you want but there is plenty of relevance and practicality left in this thread for the willing.

My intention was not to "lock horns" but simply to address the coaches question of what he could do to help is player understand why it was called and improve his technique. You asserted that "there is really nothing (the coach) could do to help his player" which, frankly, is horrible advice.

Half of those who responded in this thread felt it was a travel while several of those who leaned toward no travel thought it was close to being a violation even if they would have passed on it. At least 4 "experienced" officials in this thread, including those who work college ball, state championship level HS ball, and/or serve as evaluators and administrators on this site felt it was a clear travel and really not that close at all.

So again, your advice to a coach looking to improve his player's technique to basically, "not worry about it" is extremely poor IMO. So I chose to point that out and reaffirm advice others had offered. And I also think that your reference to this as a "classic jump stop" was flat out wrong as well as ALL of the HS and college coaches I've been around consistently teach players to jump stop with 2 feet. That's more fundamentally sound and greatly reduces the likelihood of a violation and a turnover.

This is not a matter of being contentious or personal, its a matter of trying to address a question with info that is accurate and useful. And Adam did that in the first response to the thread:

"One of two things would make this legal:
1. Gathering the dribble after he makes that last leap.
2. Landing on both feet at the same time. Note, if he does this, neither foot can be a pivot."

Telling a coach not to worry about what is, at best a borderline violation, and at worst a clear violation to many experienced officials, does not serve anybody and I simply chose to counter that advice.

[ccrroo]

OP still here and digesting all the comments (and quite appreciative).

What I've learned is that it's a difficult call (esp from the video and maybe from the refs position -- i.e -- when it's not called, the ref may just have a bad view).

And I've been working with the player on when he gathers and how he lands.
Things that I haven't taught well before.

This is a 7th grade Catholic school league where very few of the players will move on to HS ball.

[so cal lurker]

Originally Posted by ccrroo

This is a 7th grade Catholic school league where very few of the players will move on to HS ball.

Your odds of getting consistent calls on this type of thing at this level (at least in most places) just aren't great. The better you can teach, the better. But you will get refs who are just wrong, or just don't watch carefully. IMO, one of the best tools you can give your players for sports (and life) is to be aware of what is getting called. If a ref is calling somthing today, players need to adjust - whether it is three in the key, travelling, types of fouls, etc. This is true not only at MS level, but as (if) they progress - the distinctions and awareness just becomes more subtle.

Example: I help coach my son's 8th grade team, and we had a ref that was calling three seconds (at least on the big guys) after about 2.5 seconds. We talked to our big guys about getting in and out faster, and didn't have calls in the second half. Alternatively, we and they could have just kept complaining about the call all game -- and the refs would have just kept calling it and our team would have suffered -- even if we were "right."

[Welpe]

I think this is a travel, thought that on the first viewing and I don't think it's particularly all that close. I'm also not the one that will look for a travel in every little thing that goes on.

This is an attempt at a jump stop but it is not a legal jump stop. Even if you have him gathering in the air, he comes down with his left foot first as the pivot which wouldn't be technically a jump stop either but would be legal.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by ccrroo

OP still here and digesting all the comments (and quite appreciative).

What I've learned is that it's a difficult call (esp from the video and maybe from the refs position -- i.e -- when it's not called, the ref may just have a bad view).

And I've been working with the player on when he gathers and how he lands.
Things that I haven't taught well before.

This is a 7th grade Catholic school league where very few of the players will move on to HS ball.

Coach, glad to see you're still here. You've seen this move many times, so you tell us. In general, and in this clip in particular, when do you see him catching the ball to end the dribble? And were you here because you thought this was a bad call or did you not know the specifics of the rule?

I am on the side who says this is indeed a travel, and not that close to being legal.

[ccrroo]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Coach, glad to see you're still here. You've seen this move many times, so you tell us. In general, and in this clip in particular, when do you see him catching the ball to end the dribble? And were you here because you thought this was a bad call or did you not know the specifics of the rule?

I am on the side who says this is indeed a travel, and not that close to being legal.

In this clip, I think he ends his dribble with his right foot on the ground. Before reading this, I didn't know to look for that (I know, pretty bad coaching). So therefore, a travel.

I'm not shy about saying if I think something is bad call. In this case, I really just didn't understand the inconsistency. I feel much more comfortable now. And the player has already made improvements.

[ccrroo]

So I've learned a lot and adjusted the coaching points. So 2 more examples from a recent game.
I think example 1 is illegal. And example 2 is legal. I've left out the ref making any calls because that's not important. Am I seeing it correctly?

example 1 (illegal) - trying to execute a jump stop but gathers with 1 foot still on the ground and then lands one foot at at time
example 2 (legal)- another jump stop but lands on both feet

(in case embed doesn't work: http://youtu.be/yzzFB9z2qJw)