Traveling Violation - Coaching Points (VIDEO)

[Raymond]

I needed 1 time to see. So did the Slot.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I needed 1 time to see. So did the Slot.

I posted what I did above without looking at the video.

I watched the video. That one isn't even that close, IMO.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by deecee

This is very close. I have a general rule with travels, if I'm not 100% sure I don't call it. The faster and more athletic the game gets the tougher and tougher travels get. If you need multiple replays to tell I'm perfectly fine with not having a whistle.

Agreed. My only point is that it is or is not a travel based simply on the action that occurs whether we can or can not tell at full speed or even in slow motion. What video can or does reveal doesn't change reality, it only make reality known, sometimes.

If it is so close it takes slo-mo to tell it was a travel, I would not tag the official with an INC, but it was still a travel, just one that was not possible to see at game speed.

[walt]

I am in the it's really close camp and I think that is why you are getting the differing calls. It is all in the judgment of the official as to when he actually gathers the ball. That being said, if I am not sure, and have to slow it down that much and I am still not sure, I ain't guessing and we are playing on.

[Kansas Ref]

This is the classic "jump stop" offensive move. No dragging of the pivot once the ball had been gathered and the dribble stopped --player instaneously stopped.

Refs who call this a travel are guilty of one of the cardinal rules of officiating: "inserting themselves into the game". I have nothing on this play.

Message to the Coach: there is really nothing you can do to help your player to avoid the possiblilty that 1 out of 20 times he will be whistled for a "travel" when this move is executed. As evidenced by the variance of opinion within this thread of experienced refs there is no consensus; however, most would pass on this call and let the offensive possesion continue.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref

This is the classic "jump stop" offensive move. No dragging of the pivot once the ball had been gathered and the dribble stopped --player instaneously stopped.

You're saying the gather took place while the player had both feet off the floor?

[scrounge]

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref

Refs who call this a travel are guilty of one of the cardinal rules of officiating: "inserting themselves into the game". I have nothing on this play.

What are you talking about, we already *ARE* inserted into the game, to make make sure it's run according to the rules. Of course we shouldn't unnecessarily become a spectacle, but this is an empty saying, signifying nothing.

As evidenced, reasonable, educated officials can have a difference of opinion and judgment, quite validly. But to dismiss one side with whom you disagree with such a trite cliche is frankly condescending and simplistic.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Simplest thing would be to teach your players to land on 2 feet.

1) If they gather with one foot on the ground, jump off that foot, and land on 2 feet, they are still legal.

2) If they gather while in the air, then land on 2 feet, then either foot can be a pivot foot.

+1 on advice for coaching this.

I tend to give the benefit of the doubt to the ball handler as to when the gather occurs but this one seemed pretty obvious to me at real time and on the first view.

Classic example of failure to properly execute a jump stop and a clear travel to me. Not close.

I agree with what someone stated earlier. Perhaps not called much in the OP's games b/c of inexperienced officials and/or officials not wanting to blow a lot of violations at that level.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref

This is the classic "jump stop" offensive move. No dragging of the pivot once the ball had been gathered and the dribble stopped --player instaneously stopped.

Refs who call this a travel are guilty of one of the cardinal rules of officiating: "inserting themselves into the game". I have nothing on this play.

Message to the Coach: there is really nothing you can do to help your player to avoid the possiblilty that 1 out of 20 times he will be whistled for a "travel" when this move is executed. As evidenced by the variance of opinion within this thread of experienced refs there is no consensus; however, most would pass on this call and let the offensive possesion continue.

I'm sorry but this is horrible advice to the coach and not at all a "classic jump stop."

I've coached and been around a lot of D-1 and high level HS coaches. They ALL teach players to jump stop while landing with two feet simultaneously. ALL of them.

[La Rikardo]

On first viewing in real time, it looked like a badly-executed attempt to jump stop and I had a traveling violation. After slowing it down and looking more closely, I had the exact same thing. For me, this is a violation.

[Kansas Ref]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

I'm sorry but this is horrible advice to the coach and not at all a "classic jump stop."

I've coached and been around a lot of D-1 and high level HS coaches. They ALL teach players to jump stop while landing with two feet simultaneously. ALL of them.

*Regardless of what you think and/or what type of 'coaching' you have provided [or been privy to] it does not change the fact that the majority of reasonable and experienced refs will have "nothing" when they observe this maneuver. The practical advice to the query coach was simple and clear in this case: expect that 1 out of 10 times this will be called a travel so learn to cope with it and play through it. Most successful coaches recognize this.

Now, although the 'sample size" is limited [and I will concede skewed], if you just go back and calculate respondents to this thread: the % who had "nothing" compared to the % who had "travel"--the % who had "nothing" is greater. Not that this makes it a 'non-travel', but rather underscores {no pun intended} the essential point of my post. Thanks for clarifying.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref

*Regardless of what you think and/or what type of 'coaching' you have provided [or been privy to] it does not change the fact that the majority of reasonable and experienced refs will have "nothing" when they observe this maneuver. The practical advice to the query coach was simple and clear in this case: expect that 1 out of 10 times this will be called a travel so learn to cope with it and play through it. Most successful coaches recognize this.

Now, although the 'sample size" is limited [and I will concede skewed], if you just go back and calculate respondents to this thread: the % who had "nothing" compared to the % who had "travel"--the % who had "nothing" is greater. Not that this makes it a 'non-travel', but rather underscores {no pun intended} the essential point of my post. Thanks for clarifying.

My unofficial count of posters in this thread is 8 officials say travel with 8 saying no violation. So I'm disputing your contention that the percentage of posters who had nothing is greater.

And I think to say that the "majority of reasonable and experienced officials will have nothing" on this play is entirely off base and definitely not a "fact". The coach cited it being called around 10% of the time normally but much more in this particular game. That but could be the result of the level of officiating and what officials want to call at that level of play. And maybe the guy who called it more frequently was a more experienced official. I guess your advice is fine if his kids are going to stay at this level forever and with this level of officiating and he is happy with this move resulting in a turnover anywhere from 10 to 50% of the time.

The coach, however, specifically asked what he can do to help his player understand why this is called and improve his technique. In this context, your advice is horrible IMO. And I stand by that as both a former coach and a current official.

There seems to be some dispute amongst posters here about when the gather occurs and that is the reason for the split in whether its a travel or not. But there really should be no argument that if the kid lands on both feet there is no violation. So as BNR suggested and as I seconded based on my experiences with people who coach this game at a high level---Its pretty simple advice to a coach looking to improve his kids technique that he should be teaching him to land on two feet. That is a "classic jump stop." What we see in this video is NOT. And that's why it will be called a violation with varying degrees of frequency.

[Kansas Ref]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

The coach, however, specifically asked what he can do to help his player understand why this is called and improve his technique. In this context, your advice is horrible IMO. And I stand by that as both a former coach and a current official.

There seems to be some dispute amongst posters here about when the gather occurs and that is the reason for the split in whether its a travel or not. But there really should be no argument that if the kid lands on both feet there is no violation. So as BNR suggested and as I seconded based on my experiences with people who coach this game at a high level---Its pretty simple advice to a coach looking to improve his kids technique that he should be teaching him to land on two feet. That is a "classic jump stop." What we see in this video is NOT. And that's why it will be called a violation with varying degrees of frequency.

*This will be my final comment to this thread because the "coach" that originated it has evidently gleaned all of the advice from us refs as indicated by the fact that s/he is no longer posting to this thread. But from the tenor of your comments I percieve that your intentions in continuing to post on it are to "lock horns" with me instead of addressing the central issue at hand, thus you have spun the thread into irrelevance and impracticality.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref

*This will be my final comment to this thread because the "coach" that originated it has evidently gleaned all of the advice from us refs as indicated by the fact that s/he is no longer posting to this thread. But from the tenor of your comments I percieve that your intentions in continuing to post on it are to "lock horns" with me instead of addressing the central issue at hand, thus you have spun the thread into irrelevance and impracticality.

You can spin it however you want but there is plenty of relevance and practicality left in this thread for the willing.

My intention was not to "lock horns" but simply to address the coaches question of what he could do to help is player understand why it was called and improve his technique. You asserted that "there is really nothing (the coach) could do to help his player" which, frankly, is horrible advice.

Half of those who responded in this thread felt it was a travel while several of those who leaned toward no travel thought it was close to being a violation even if they would have passed on it. At least 4 "experienced" officials in this thread, including those who work college ball, state championship level HS ball, and/or serve as evaluators and administrators on this site felt it was a clear travel and really not that close at all.

So again, your advice to a coach looking to improve his player's technique to basically, "not worry about it" is extremely poor IMO. So I chose to point that out and reaffirm advice others had offered. And I also think that your reference to this as a "classic jump stop" was flat out wrong as well as ALL of the HS and college coaches I've been around consistently teach players to jump stop with 2 feet. That's more fundamentally sound and greatly reduces the likelihood of a violation and a turnover.

This is not a matter of being contentious or personal, its a matter of trying to address a question with info that is accurate and useful. And Adam did that in the first response to the thread:

"One of two things would make this legal:
1. Gathering the dribble after he makes that last leap.
2. Landing on both feet at the same time. Note, if he does this, neither foot can be a pivot."

Telling a coach not to worry about what is, at best a borderline violation, and at worst a clear violation to many experienced officials, does not serve anybody and I simply chose to counter that advice.

[ccrroo]

OP still here and digesting all the comments (and quite appreciative).

What I've learned is that it's a difficult call (esp from the video and maybe from the refs position -- i.e -- when it's not called, the ref may just have a bad view).

And I've been working with the player on when he gathers and how he lands.
Things that I haven't taught well before.

This is a 7th grade Catholic school league where very few of the players will move on to HS ball.