Definite Knowledge?

[That Guy]

From a coach friend of mine:

MS game (not that it matters in this one):
A down by 1, 6 seconds left, H ball in the backcourt following a timeout.

A brings the ball up court, several passes are made before they end up with a layup to win the game at the buzzer.

As the R consults with the timer to confirm whether it was released in time, the timer informs the R that she hadn't stopped the clock quickly enough before the timeout, so she made up for it by holding for a moment before starting when the official chopped in time on the throw-in.

Officials confer, and determine they now have definite knowledge of a timing error and wave off the basket. Game over, B wins.

Were the officials correct?

[mutantducky]

that sucks. It is penalizing the team that may have scored had the timing been right. Maybe they would have gotten the shot off sooner.
Yes I think they were correct. But certainly not a way you'd want to finish a game. I don't think there is any way to restart it, and have them go again? Not a correctable error.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by That Guy

Were the officials correct?

No. They would have been correct if they spotted the timing error at the time it occurred (before the timeout), and had the definite knowledge to fix it, but it's too late at this time to fix it.

[mutantducky]

So, same situation but instead of a moment, let's say the clock doesn't start for 2 seconds. The refs know for sure the shot would have been late. But because it came before the buzzer you would still count the basket because the refs didn't notice the problem until after? I'm also thinking about hometown cooking, with the clock person being biased.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by mutantducky

So, same situation but instead of a moment, let's say the clock doesn't start for 2 seconds. The refs know for sure the shot would have been late. But because it came before the buzzer you would still count the basket because the refs didn't notice the problem until after? I'm also thinking about hometown cooking, with the clock person being biased.

If one of the officials had a count going, he should have killed it when he got to 6. If he didn't have a count going, you can't just do this because you know it would have been late. Without a count, you've got nothing here.

For me, with 6 seconds to go, I always have a count. If I get to two and the clock hasn't moved, I'm stopping the game, resettin the clock to 4 seconds, and adminstering a new throw-in from the POI.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Adam

If one of the officials had a count going, he should have killed it when he got to 6. If he didn't have a count going, you can't just do this because you know it would have been late. Without a count, you've got nothing here.

For me, with 6 seconds to go, I always have a count. If I get to two and the clock hasn't moved, I'm stopping the game, resettin the clock to 4 seconds, and adminstering a new throw-in from the POI.

Agree. The official should stop it immediately when they see the clock not starting. It is unfair to the team to let it play down to 2 or 1 and declare the game over when they are expecting to have 1 or 2 more seconds to get to their shot.

Counting down to some point and declaring the game over would be the wrong game management decision.

[mutantducky]

Ok cool, will keep that in mind. End of game situations do a count, if possible quick glance at clock and see if things are lined up.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

No. They would have been correct if they spotted the timing error at the time it occurred (before the timeout), and had the definite knowledge to fix it, but it's too late at this time to fix it.

Bill:

Carole King, . I love the reference. Boy, we are getting old. LOL!

MTD, Sr.

[Kelvin green]

why is the R conferring with the timer to determine if final shot is good? Mistake

The clock running after time out called and not picking it up. Mistake

The clock being held and not starting and not knowing it, Mistake

Taking away the basket with out definite knowledge. Mistake.

If they did not correct the time running after the time out, it's too late... They did not have definte knowledge of the time...

One mistake should not be compounded into multiple mistakes.....

[Nevadaref]

The timer shouldn't be making decisions about how to fix timing mistakes.
Since the home timer incorrectly gave the home team more time to score, there is justice in the fact that the basket was nullified.

[La Rikardo]

Originally Posted by That Guy

From a coach friend of mine:

MS game (not that it matters in this one):
A down by 1, 6 seconds left, H ball in the backcourt following a timeout.

A brings the ball up court, several passes are made before they end up with a layup to win the game at the buzzer.

As the R consults with the timer to confirm whether it was released in time, the timer informs the R that she hadn't stopped the clock quickly enough before the timeout, so she made up for it by holding for a moment before starting when the official chopped in time on the throw-in.

Officials confer, and determine they now have definite knowledge of a timing error and wave off the basket. Game over, B wins.

Were the officials correct?

If no official has definite knowledge regarding the time, the goal must count. Regardless of whether the timer made a mistake, the time on the clock is all that matters unless an official has definite knowledge of what the time should be.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by La Rikardo

If no official has definite knowledge regarding the time, the goal must count. Regardless of whether the timer made a mistake, the time on the clock is all that matters unless an official has definite knowledge of what the time should be.

Definite knowledge may be obtained by consulting with the timer. Since that was done here with the timer stating that she purposely didn't start the clock for a couple of seconds, if the officials know that the basket was scored in the final two seconds, canceling the goal would be proper.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by mutantducky

Ok cool, will keep that in mind. End of game situations do a count, if possible quick glance at clock and see if things are lined up.

It's always possible for one of the two (or three) officials to glance at the clock.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Definite knowledge may be obtained by consulting with the timer. Since that was done here with the timer stating that she purposely didn't start the clock for a couple of seconds, if the officials know that the basket was scored in the final two seconds, canceling the goal would be proper.

No certain number of seconds was mentioned in the OP. And even if it had been, it is highly unlikely that the amount of time involved in the late stoppage was anything other than a guess. That would eliminate the possibility of the timer's overall adjustments, or lack thereof, as being anything definite.

[mutantducky]

check out this video. That's an interesting call by the refs...

http://www.maxpreps.com/blogs/maxwir...ck-mistake.htm