New Interpretation Regarding "Definite Knowledge"

[rfp]

From 2009-2010 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations:
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Situation 11: Team B scores a goal to take the lead by one point. A1 immediately requests and is granted a timeout with three seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. Following the timeout, Team A is awarded the ball for a throw-in from anywhere along the end line. A1 passes the ball to A2, who is also outside the boundary; A2 passes the ball to A1 who is inbounds and running the length of the court. The timer mistakenly starts the clock when A2 touches A1's pass while standing outside the boundary. An official notices the clock starting on A2's touch (a), before A2 releases the throw-in pass to A1, (b) while A2's throw-in pass is in flight to A1, or (c), as soon as A1 catches the throw-in pass.

Ruling: This is an obvious timing mistake and may be corrected. In (a) and (b), the official shall blow the whistle, stop play and direct the timer to put three seconds on the game clock. Since the throw-in had not ended, play is resumed with a Team A throw-in anywhere along the end line. In (c), the official may put the correct time on the clock, but must make some allowance for the touching by A1 -- likely 10ths of a second, if displayed. The ball is put in play nearest to where it was located when the stoppage occurred to correct the timing mistake. A "do over" is not permitted in (c), since the throw-in had ended. (4-36; 5-10-1)
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So now we have an interpretation that gives us the ability to guess ("make some allowance") without having specific definite knowledge as from an official's count. I think this is newsworthy and should put to rest much of the debate we've had on this topic.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by rfp

So now we have an interpretation that gives us the ability to guess ("make some allowance") without having specific definite knowledge as from an official's count. I think this is newsworthy and should put to rest much of the debate we've had on this topic.

The conversations I remember people having were mostly based on individuals that were using their own ideas of what "definite knowledge" meant. I think this clarifies what many were already saying.

Peace

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The conversations I remember people having were mostly based on individuals that were using their own ideas of what "definite knowledge" meant. I think this clarifies what many were already saying.

Peace

I agree....

[rfp]

I think this interp is giving us the allowance to make up our own "definite knowledge" -- to a degree.

Note the "tenths of a second" phrase. Is that 1/10? 2/10? 3/10? Not much clarity there. Sounds like we can add what we think. I'm not sure that's the "definite knowledge" we've been debating.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by rfp

I think this interp is giving us the allowance to make up our own "definite knowledge" -- to a degree.

Note the "tenths of a second" phrase. Is that 1/10? 2/10? 3/10? Not much clarity there. Sounds like we can add what we think. I'm not sure that's the "definite knowledge" we've been debating.

I do not profess to remember every single conversation that was had on this issue. But I recall that there were people that claimed we could not move the clock if the ball was in-bounded and we could not take time off the clock unless we had a signal count to judge. In other words if 10 seconds was left in a quarter/half/game and the ball is in-bounded and the clock does not move, but a player dribbled and stood around for what is obviously a couple of seconds, some argued you could not take time off the clock unless you had a signal count. I think this basically says that we can take time off the clock even a little when we know time should have been off the clock.

Peace

[mathuc]

Originally Posted by rfp

From 2009-2010 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations:
---
Situation 11: Team B scores a goal to take the lead by one point. A1 immediately requests and is granted a timeout with three seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. Following the timeout, Team A is awarded the ball for a throw-in from anywhere along the end line. A1 passes the ball to A2, who is also outside the boundary; A2 passes the ball to A1 who is inbounds and running the length of the court. The timer mistakenly starts the clock when A2 touches A1's pass while standing outside the boundary. An official notices the clock starting on A2's touch (a), before A2 releases the throw-in pass to A1, (b) while A2's throw-in pass is in flight to A1, or (c), as soon as A1 catches the throw-in pass.

Ruling: This is an obvious timing mistake and may be corrected. In (a) and (b), the official shall blow the whistle, stop play and direct the timer to put three seconds on the game clock. Since the throw-in had not ended, play is resumed with a Team A throw-in anywhere along the end line. In (c), the official may put the correct time on the clock, but must make some allowance for the touching by A1 -- likely 10ths of a second, if displayed. The ball is put in play nearest to where it was located when the stoppage occurred to correct the timing mistake. A "do over" is not permitted in (c), since the throw-in had ended. (4-36; 5-10-1)
---

So now we have an interpretation that gives us the ability to guess ("make some allowance") without having specific definite knowledge as from an official's count. I think this is newsworthy and should put to rest much of the debate we've had on this topic.

Why would you take tenths of a second off the clock on this play when you are reverting back to the original out of bounds position in (a) and (b)? That would be CLEARLY penalizing team A for the timer's error. Thus having a clear, direct and unfair impact on the game. Reset the clock back to the known time, reset the play, tell the timer to watch yourself or your partner (which, btw, you should have done in the first place) and play on. Seems like a little common sense to me. Neither coach can argue with you in this situation when explained properly to them - and since there is probably a full court press on and your table crew has already screwed up team A's inbounds play, you've probably already set them at a disadvantage...so taking additional time off the clock would screw them even more.

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by mathuc

Why would you take tenths of a second off the clock on this play when you are reverting back to the original out of bounds position in (a) and (b)? That would be CLEARLY penalizing team A for the timer's error. Thus having a clear, direct and unfair impact on the game. Reset the clock back to the known time, reset the play, tell the timer to watch yourself or your partner (which, btw, you should have done in the first place) and play on. Seems like a little common sense to me. Neither coach can argue with you in this situation when explained properly to them - and since there is probably a full court press on and your table crew has already screwed up team A's inbounds play, you've probably already set them at a disadvantage...so taking additional time off the clock would screw them even more.

You might want to re-read the original post...10th's are only taken off in sit. C, not A or B....

[mathuc]

Originally Posted by TimTaylor

You might want to re-read the original post...10th's are only taken off in sit. C, not A or B....

Ok, so i re-read the original post, and we are to take time off the clock in C. I completely, 100%, disagree with this and would never call it. I'm not going to compound my timer's mistake/problem and I would do what I said in A and B even in C. Why would the rulebook tell me to penalize team A for my timer's mistake. Backwards as far as I'm concerned...

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by mathuc

I completely, 100%, disagree with this and would never call it.

Really? Case book tells you to do something and you absolutely refuse to do it?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by mathuc

Ok, so i re-read the original post, and we are to take time off the clock in C. I completely, 100%, disagree with this and would never call it. I'm not going to compound my timer's mistake/problem and I would do what I said in A and B even in C. Why would the rulebook tell me to penalize team A for my timer's mistake. Backwards as far as I'm concerned...

Actually, in (c), you would be screwing team B by not taking any time off, because A would have the ball advanced to where A2 caught it, without any time coming off. Remember, there are no "do-overs", so in (c) you can't go back to the endline and start over, you would put the ball back in play closest to where A caught it. I also agree there should be "some" time taken off, because, if done correctly, the timer would've started the clock on A2's touch/catch, and stopped quickly on the official's whistle. If you ask some officials, they will know exactly how many tenths elapsed, because they can count in tenths...

But I do not think this interp on this particular situation now gives officials the blanket authority to guess at any length of time that they feel needs to be added or taken off. There are still the specific case plays governing "definite knowledge", including 5.10.1 and 5.10.2. None of them say anything about the official correcting an "approximate" amount of time, or that the official should "estimate" the proper amount of time to be corrected. All of them still rely on the official seeing the specific time on the clock, or using an official's count of some sort (which also includes a silent, non-visable count).

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by mathuc

Ok, so i re-read the original post, and we are to take time off the clock in C. I completely, 100%, disagree with this and would never call it. I'm not going to compound my timer's mistake/problem and I would do what I said in A and B even in C. Why would the rulebook tell me to penalize team A for my timer's mistake. Backwards as far as I'm concerned...

In what other situations do you make up your own rules?

[Time2Ref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

If you ask some officials, they will know exactly how many tenths elapsed, because they can count in tenths...

Yes, but how many "tenths of a second" is that in METRIC

[just another ref]

If you ask me, which, up to this point, has never happened, this interp is almost as bogus as the legendary backcourt interp. We make an adjustment, since we have "definite information" that "likely, tenths of a second" have elapsed.

As mathuc points out, this puts A at a clear disadvantage. They have the ball back, quite possibly at the same spot, depending on where the touch by A1 took place, with less time on the clock through no fault of their own.

If the throw-in is still on the end line, have they now lost the privilege of running the baseline?

[Back In The Saddle]

Very similar to the discussion we had a few weeks ago. An adjustment of a few 10ths based on some very definite, though not precise, information.

[just another ref]

the official may put the correct time on the clock, but must make some allowance for the touching by A1 -- likely 10ths of a second

So, perhaps a rewrite is in order here.

The official may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to start or stop the clock. Definite knowledge, such as an official's count, or an observation of the clock at a significant point by a reliable source, shall be used if available. If not, officials should confer and reach their best estimate.