Wrong Way to Start the 4th

[crosscountry55]

Middle School basketball can be an interesting laboratory.

Never saw this before, but I'm the R setting up to inbound the ball at the start of the 4th. I point (with verbal color) the correct direction as the players come to the ball, and also just before I give the ball to A1. I also correctly put the thrower between myself and his basket. And my partner is taking up a spot as the new L under A's basket.

Nonetheless, Team B is asleep and setting up to play defense on the wrong end of the court. Team A goes right along for the ride, but I can't tell for sure if the thrower and his pass recipient are aware of this or not, so thinking they may want to take advantage and score an easy bucket, I put the ball at A1's disposal.

...And of course A2 gets the inbound and starts dribbling toward B's basket. Doh! Team A gets a shot off and misses. At this point I'm thinking, "I let A go the wrong direction, so to be fair maybe I should let B go the wrong direction, too, and hope that they figure it out in the process." They didn't....and scored, and then finally I blew the whistle. My partner and I credited the basket to A, and then we went the correct direction.

My question is....the rule states that when by mistake, the officials permit the teams to go the wrong direction (usually this happens after the opening tip or sometimes after halftime), when recognized, count all the stats to that point and just go the correct direction. But what happens when the officials don't make a mistake and the teams go the wrong direction anyway? Did we do this right, or should I have been more insistent before the quarter started when it was clear Team B was playing defense on the wrong end? Or maybe after one (vice two) possessions we should have blown it dead to correct it?

I actually have no idea what the proper procedure or protocol is here. Looking for some advice so I do it right the next time this happens. Thanks.

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

Middle School basketball can be an interesting laboratory.

Never saw this before, but I'm the R setting up to inbound the ball at the start of the 4th. I point (with verbal color) the correct direction as the players come to the ball, and also just before I give the ball to A1. I also correctly put the thrower between myself and his basket. And my partner is taking up a spot as the new L under A's basket.

Nonetheless, Team B is asleep and setting up to play defense on the wrong end of the court. Team A goes right along for the ride, but I can't tell for sure if the thrower and his pass recipient are aware of this or not, so thinking they may want to take advantage and score an easy bucket, I put the ball at A1's disposal.

...And of course A2 gets the inbound and starts dribbling toward B's basket. Doh! Team A gets a shot off and misses. At this point I'm thinking, "I let A go the wrong direction, so to be fair maybe I should let B go the wrong direction, too, and hope that they figure it out in the process." They didn't....and scored, and then finally I blew the whistle. My partner and I credited the basket to A, and then we went the correct direction.

My question is....the rule states that when by mistake, the officials permit the teams to go the wrong direction (usually this happens after the opening tip or sometimes after halftime), when recognized, count all the stats to that point and just go the correct direction. But what happens when the officials don't make a mistake and the teams go the wrong direction anyway? Did we do this right, or should I have been more insistent before the quarter started when it was clear Team B was playing defense on the wrong end? Or maybe after one (vice two) possessions we should have blown it dead to correct it?

I actually have no idea what the proper procedure or protocol is here. Looking for some advice so I do it right the next time this happens. Thanks.

Should have a backcourt violation before anything else weird happens. Take this opportunity to get everyone lined up in proper direction.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by justacoach

Should have a backcourt violation before anything else weird happens. Take this opportunity to get everyone lined up in proper direction.

Coach....that is a great, great point and a shockingly simple way to end this mess early. Thanks!

Conversely, if he passes into the backcourt to begin with, I suppose I could just start a 10-second count. A missed shot wouldn't end it because it wouldn't be a try. If the ball goes in, blow the whistle, credit the basket to B, and then we go the right way. If B rebounds a miss and goes the other way, they'll advance their way right into their own backcourt violation.

Yup. Knew there was a better way than the way I did it. Got this one in the brain bank for later.

[frezer11]

If it's a middle school game, and I think there's confusion, I probabaly wait until I feel confident that both teams know the proper direction. I really think MS is different from a varsity game here, and I would feel bad putting a ball in play if I think/know something is off.

I couldn't tell from the OP, but if the officials know what's up, then the natural progression of the game will stop at worst after one made basket. Either there will be a backcourt violation, or the team who incorrectly shot at their own hoop would have to be the team to put the ball in play

[johnny d]

Your concerned about proper procedure in a middle school game? I cant remember the last time I did a middle school game, but I would handle the situation as follows. First, I would have told B they were defending the wrong basket before I ever allowed A to inbound the ball. If the A coach doesn't like that, too bad for him. He will either get over it or he will get a tech. Second, if you knew they were going the wrong direction, and you had told them the correct direction, then when B got the ball, they were in team control in the front court, and they took the ball into the back court before they scored. If I had allowed the situation to get to the point you had (which I would not have) I would have stopped it with an over and back call. You might have had one on team A as well, depending upon where they inbounded the ball.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by johnny d

Your concerned about proper procedure in a middle school game?

I'm concerned about proper procedure in all my games.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

Middle School basketball can be an interesting laboratory.

Never saw this before, but I'm the R setting up to inbound the ball at the start of the 4th. I point (with verbal color) the correct direction as the players come to the ball, and also just before I give the ball to A1. I also correctly put the thrower between myself and his basket. And my partner is taking up a spot as the new L under A's basket.

Nonetheless, Team B is asleep and setting up to play defense on the wrong end of the court. Team A goes right along for the ride, but I can't tell for sure if the thrower and his pass recipient are aware of this or not, so thinking they may want to take advantage and score an easy bucket, I put the ball at A1's disposal.

...And of course A2 gets the inbound and starts dribbling toward B's basket. Doh! Team A gets a shot off and misses. At this point I'm thinking, "I let A go the wrong direction, so to be fair maybe I should let B go the wrong direction, too, and hope that they figure it out in the process." They didn't....and scored, and then finally I blew the whistle. My partner and I credited the basket to A, and then we went the correct direction.

My question is....the rule states that when by mistake, the officials permit the teams to go the wrong direction (usually this happens after the opening tip or sometimes after halftime), when recognized, count all the stats to that point and just go the correct direction. But what happens when the officials don't make a mistake and the teams go the wrong direction anyway? Did we do this right, or should I have been more insistent before the quarter started when it was clear Team B was playing defense on the wrong end? Or maybe after one (vice two) possessions we should have blown it dead to correct it?

I actually have no idea what the proper procedure or protocol is here. Looking for some advice so I do it right the next time this happens. Thanks.

Originally Posted by johnny d

Your concerned about proper procedure in a middle school game? I cant remember the last time I did a middle school game, but I would handle the situation as follows. First, I would have told B they were defending the wrong basket before I ever allowed A to inbound the ball. If the A coach doesn't like that, too bad for him. He will either get over it or he will get a tech. Second, if you knew they were going the wrong direction, and you had told them the correct direction, then when B got the ball, they were in team control in the front court, and they took the ball into the back court before they scored. If I had allowed the situation to get to the point you had (which I would not have) I would have stopped it with an over and back call. You might have had one on team A as well, depending upon where they inbounded the ball.

We do not like it when Coaches want to officiate the game for us. We do not coach the players in the game we officiate. We don't know if Team A is trying to fool Team B in order to get an uncontested layup.


I would say you were very very wrong for whacking a HC who may have set up a play as I described in my paragraph above.


You and your partner were 50% correct. Score the FG for Team B, and then put them in the correct direction.

MTD, Sr.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

We do not like it when Coaches want to officiate the game for us. We do not coach the players in the game we officiate. We don't know if Team A is trying to fool Team B in order to get an uncontested layup.


I would say you were very very wrong for whacking a HC who may have set up a play as I described in my paragraph above.



MTD, Sr.

MTD, I would not advocate this philosophy in HS or college games. In a middle school game, I don't care if team A has a designed play or not. Team B will be well aware of which direction each team is supposed to go in before I allow the ball to be inbounded. Second, the coach would not be getting a tech for setting up a play to confuse the opposition, they would be getting a tech for not accepting the explanation I give them and refusing to move on. At any level game, the coach can be upset about a play, and may even be given an explanation. However, once that explanation is given it doesn't matter whether he agrees with it or not, or even if the explanation follows the rules, he isn't going to continue to complain about the call without consequence. If he doesn't like the explanation or it isn't correct by rule, he can take it up with the assignor after the game is over. Finally, in the OP, it is pretty clear neither team has any idea as to which direction they are supposed to be going, so your whole designed play theory doesn't apply to this situation.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by johnny d

MTD, I would not advocate this philosophy in HS or college games. In a middle school game, I don't care if team A has a designed play or not. Team B will be well aware of which direction each team is supposed to go in before I allow the ball to be inbounded. Second, the coach would not be getting a tech for setting up a play to confuse the opposition, they would be getting a tech for not accepting the explanation I give them and refusing to move on. At any level game, the coach can be upset about a play, and may even be given an explanation. However, once that explanation is given it doesn't matter whether he agrees with it or not, or even if the explanation follows the rules, he isn't going to continue to complain about the call without consequence. If he doesn't like the explanation or it isn't correct by rule, he can take it up with the assignor after the game is over. Finally, in the OP, it is pretty clear neither team has any idea as to which direction they are supposed to be going, so your whole designed play theory doesn't apply to this situation.

I had a coach once ask me not to point the direction in order to help him run this play. I was amazed that a coach would even think to ask such a thing.

I made sure I emphasized and re-emphasized the direction we were going to start the quarter. B didn't fall for it - they would've had to have been completely brain dead at that point to fall for it.

Coach was unhappy, like I cared.

Originally Posted by Rich

I had a coach once ask me not to point the direction in order to help him run this play. I was amazed that a coach would even think to ask such a thing.

I made sure I emphasized and re-emphasized the direction we were going to start the quarter. B didn't fall for it - they would've had to have been completely brain dead at that point to fall for it.

Coach was unhappy, like I cared.

"Coach, I am required to indicate the color and direction of the throw."

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by johnny d

MTD, I would not advocate this philosophy in HS or college games. In a middle school game, I don't care if team A has a designed play or not. Team B will be well aware of which direction each team is supposed to go in before I allow the ball to be inbounded. Second, the coach would not be getting a tech for setting up a play to confuse the opposition, they would be getting a tech for not accepting the explanation I give them and refusing to move on. At any level game, the coach can be upset about a play, and may even be given an explanation. However, once that explanation is given it doesn't matter whether he agrees with it or not, or even if the explanation follows the rules, he isn't going to continue to complain about the call without consequence. If he doesn't like the explanation or it isn't correct by rule, he can take it up with the assignor after the game is over. Finally, in the OP, it is pretty clear neither team has any idea as to which direction they are supposed to be going, so your whole designed play theory doesn't apply to this situation.

Officials and coaches who know me know that I will not think twice about whacking a coach.

BUT if I screwed the poach (as umpires would say) and I it is a situation taht I cannot reverse then I am going to let the coach chew on my tuchus a little.

I can assure you that in a college game if you screw up a coach's play and then you whack him because you didn't like him complaining about it, you won't be officiating at the level for very long.

MTD, Sr.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

BUT if I screwed the poach (as umpires would say) and I it is a situation taht I cannot reverse then I am going to let the coach chew on my tuchus a little.

As would I. However, I would allow him some extra chewing before I addressed the situation with him. I might give him some extra time to vent his frustration to me when I go to him and before I give him an explanation, or if he is addressing me when I am table side in front of his bench, I might give him a trip or two up and down the court. If he is yelling at me across the court or being an obvious jackass, then he wont be getting any extra rope, even if I was completely wrong on the call in question. Once he has my explanation, or I have told him we are done discussing the play, he has two choices, move on or get whacked.

Thanks for the advice, but there is no need for you to worry though, my college schedule has been fine and will continue to grow.

Originally Posted by johnny d

Your concerned about proper procedure in a middle school game? I cant remember the last time I did a middle school game, but I would handle the situation as follows. First, I would have told B they were defending the wrong basket before I ever allowed A to inbound the ball. If the A coach doesn't like that, too bad for him. He will either get over it or he will get a tech. Second, if you knew they were going the wrong direction, and you had told them the correct direction, then when B got the ball, they were in team control in the front court, and they took the ball into the back court before they scored. If I had allowed the situation to get to the point you had (which I would not have) I would have stopped it with an over and back call. You might have had one on team A as well, depending upon where they inbounded the ball.

What johnny said, plus if A heads the wrong direction but does not commit a back court violation (i.e. they catch the ball in the backcourt and head towards B's basket) I'm blowing everything dead, lining everyone up correctly and giving A the ball at the POI. I'd rather do that using my 2-3 powers than have to deal with points being scored going the wrong way.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by AremRed

What johnny said, plus if A heads the wrong direction but does not commit a back court violation (i.e. they catch the ball in the backcourt and head towards B's basket) I'm blowing everything dead, lining everyone up correctly and giving A the ball at the POI. I'd rather do that using my 2-3 powers than have to deal with points being scored going the wrong way.

2-3 is not necessary here. This is covered in the rules. 4-5-4

Originally Posted by just another ref

2-3 is not necessary here. This is covered in the rules. 4-5-4

Even better!