Wrong Way to Start the 4th

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

Middle School basketball can be an interesting laboratory.

Never saw this before, but I'm the R setting up to inbound the ball at the start of the 4th. I point (with verbal color) the correct direction as the players come to the ball, and also just before I give the ball to A1. I also correctly put the thrower between myself and his basket. And my partner is taking up a spot as the new L under A's basket.

Nonetheless, Team B is asleep and setting up to play defense on the wrong end of the court. Team A goes right along for the ride, but I can't tell for sure if the thrower and his pass recipient are aware of this or not, so thinking they may want to take advantage and score an easy bucket, I put the ball at A1's disposal.

...And of course A2 gets the inbound and starts dribbling toward B's basket. Doh! Team A gets a shot off and misses. At this point I'm thinking, "I let A go the wrong direction, so to be fair maybe I should let B go the wrong direction, too, and hope that they figure it out in the process." They didn't....and scored, and then finally I blew the whistle. My partner and I credited the basket to A, and then we went the correct direction.

My question is....the rule states that when by mistake, the officials permit the teams to go the wrong direction (usually this happens after the opening tip or sometimes after halftime), when recognized, count all the stats to that point and just go the correct direction. But what happens when the officials don't make a mistake and the teams go the wrong direction anyway? Did we do this right, or should I have been more insistent before the quarter started when it was clear Team B was playing defense on the wrong end? Or maybe after one (vice two) possessions we should have blown it dead to correct it?

I actually have no idea what the proper procedure or protocol is here. Looking for some advice so I do it right the next time this happens. Thanks.

Originally Posted by johnny d

Your concerned about proper procedure in a middle school game? I cant remember the last time I did a middle school game, but I would handle the situation as follows. First, I would have told B they were defending the wrong basket before I ever allowed A to inbound the ball. If the A coach doesn't like that, too bad for him. He will either get over it or he will get a tech. Second, if you knew they were going the wrong direction, and you had told them the correct direction, then when B got the ball, they were in team control in the front court, and they took the ball into the back court before they scored. If I had allowed the situation to get to the point you had (which I would not have) I would have stopped it with an over and back call. You might have had one on team A as well, depending upon where they inbounded the ball.

We do not like it when Coaches want to officiate the game for us. We do not coach the players in the game we officiate. We don't know if Team A is trying to fool Team B in order to get an uncontested layup.


I would say you were very very wrong for whacking a HC who may have set up a play as I described in my paragraph above.


You and your partner were 50% correct. Score the FG for Team B, and then put them in the correct direction.

MTD, Sr.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

We do not like it when Coaches want to officiate the game for us. We do not coach the players in the game we officiate. We don't know if Team A is trying to fool Team B in order to get an uncontested layup.


I would say you were very very wrong for whacking a HC who may have set up a play as I described in my paragraph above.



MTD, Sr.

MTD, I would not advocate this philosophy in HS or college games. In a middle school game, I don't care if team A has a designed play or not. Team B will be well aware of which direction each team is supposed to go in before I allow the ball to be inbounded. Second, the coach would not be getting a tech for setting up a play to confuse the opposition, they would be getting a tech for not accepting the explanation I give them and refusing to move on. At any level game, the coach can be upset about a play, and may even be given an explanation. However, once that explanation is given it doesn't matter whether he agrees with it or not, or even if the explanation follows the rules, he isn't going to continue to complain about the call without consequence. If he doesn't like the explanation or it isn't correct by rule, he can take it up with the assignor after the game is over. Finally, in the OP, it is pretty clear neither team has any idea as to which direction they are supposed to be going, so your whole designed play theory doesn't apply to this situation.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by johnny d

MTD, I would not advocate this philosophy in HS or college games. In a middle school game, I don't care if team A has a designed play or not. Team B will be well aware of which direction each team is supposed to go in before I allow the ball to be inbounded. Second, the coach would not be getting a tech for setting up a play to confuse the opposition, they would be getting a tech for not accepting the explanation I give them and refusing to move on. At any level game, the coach can be upset about a play, and may even be given an explanation. However, once that explanation is given it doesn't matter whether he agrees with it or not, or even if the explanation follows the rules, he isn't going to continue to complain about the call without consequence. If he doesn't like the explanation or it isn't correct by rule, he can take it up with the assignor after the game is over. Finally, in the OP, it is pretty clear neither team has any idea as to which direction they are supposed to be going, so your whole designed play theory doesn't apply to this situation.

I had a coach once ask me not to point the direction in order to help him run this play. I was amazed that a coach would even think to ask such a thing.

I made sure I emphasized and re-emphasized the direction we were going to start the quarter. B didn't fall for it - they would've had to have been completely brain dead at that point to fall for it.

Coach was unhappy, like I cared.

Originally Posted by Rich

I had a coach once ask me not to point the direction in order to help him run this play. I was amazed that a coach would even think to ask such a thing.

I made sure I emphasized and re-emphasized the direction we were going to start the quarter. B didn't fall for it - they would've had to have been completely brain dead at that point to fall for it.

Coach was unhappy, like I cared.

"Coach, I am required to indicate the color and direction of the throw."

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Rich

I had a coach once ask me not to point the direction in order to help him run this play. I was amazed that a coach would even think to ask such a thing.

I made sure I emphasized and re-emphasized the direction we were going to start the quarter. B didn't fall for it - they would've had to have been completely brain dead at that point to fall for it.

Coach was unhappy, like I cared.

Originally Posted by AremRed

"Coach, I am required to indicate the color and direction of the throw."

I just went through the NFHS Basketball Officials Manual and no where could I find the requirement for the R to indicate the Teams' directions prior to the Jump Ball to start the game or any OT (I know, a bad bad word) Period (the IAABO Officials Manual does require the R to indicate both verbally and with a direction signal the team's Baskets) or the AP Arrow to start anyother Period. Just make sure that you have the Jumpers in the correct halves of the Center Circle and a) that you have the Thrower between you and his/her team's basket prior to the AP TI and b) your partners adjust themselves to the locations of the other players.

It is not that uncommon for JrHS coaches to run such deception plays; in fact I would say that is where one will find this type of play being run about 99.99% of the time. When this type of situation presents itself, the officials have to take a somewhat of a wait and see attitude.

MTD, Sr.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I just went through the NFHS Basketball Officials Manual and no where could I find the requirement for the R to indicate the Teams' directions prior to the Jump Ball to start the game or any OT (I know, a bad bad word) Period (the IAABO Officials Manual does require the R to indicate both verbally and with a direction signal the team's Baskets) or the AP Arrow to start anyother Period. Just make sure that you have the Jumpers in the correct halves of the Center Circle and a) that you have the Thrower between you and his/her team's basket prior to the AP TI and b) your partners adjust themselves to the locations of the other players.

It is not that uncommon for JrHS coaches to run such deception plays; in fact I would say that is where one will find this type of play being run about 99.99% of the time. When this type of situation presents itself, the officials have to take somewhat of a wait and see attitude.

MTD, Sr.

Nope, they should point a direction every time and not be an accomplice in such BS.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Rich

Nope, they should point a direction every time and not be an accomplice in such BS.

Rich:

Since when is it BS for a team to run a play that is deceptive to its opponent as long as it does not commit any infractions of the rules. Furthermore, we as veteran officials should be using correct mechanics and not coaching teamsm and mentoring less experience officials to use correct mechanics.

Let the coaches coach and the officials officate.

MTD, Sr.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by johnny d

MTD, I would not advocate this philosophy in HS or college games. In a middle school game, I don't care if team A has a designed play or not. Team B will be well aware of which direction each team is supposed to go in before I allow the ball to be inbounded. Second, the coach would not be getting a tech for setting up a play to confuse the opposition, they would be getting a tech for not accepting the explanation I give them and refusing to move on. At any level game, the coach can be upset about a play, and may even be given an explanation. However, once that explanation is given it doesn't matter whether he agrees with it or not, or even if the explanation follows the rules, he isn't going to continue to complain about the call without consequence. If he doesn't like the explanation or it isn't correct by rule, he can take it up with the assignor after the game is over. Finally, in the OP, it is pretty clear neither team has any idea as to which direction they are supposed to be going, so your whole designed play theory doesn't apply to this situation.

Officials and coaches who know me know that I will not think twice about whacking a coach.

BUT if I screwed the poach (as umpires would say) and I it is a situation taht I cannot reverse then I am going to let the coach chew on my tuchus a little.

I can assure you that in a college game if you screw up a coach's play and then you whack him because you didn't like him complaining about it, you won't be officiating at the level for very long.

MTD, Sr.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

BUT if I screwed the poach (as umpires would say) and I it is a situation taht I cannot reverse then I am going to let the coach chew on my tuchus a little.

As would I. However, I would allow him some extra chewing before I addressed the situation with him. I might give him some extra time to vent his frustration to me when I go to him and before I give him an explanation, or if he is addressing me when I am table side in front of his bench, I might give him a trip or two up and down the court. If he is yelling at me across the court or being an obvious jackass, then he wont be getting any extra rope, even if I was completely wrong on the call in question. Once he has my explanation, or I have told him we are done discussing the play, he has two choices, move on or get whacked.

Thanks for the advice, but there is no need for you to worry though, my college schedule has been fine and will continue to grow.

[Rich1]

Agree that game management dictates that you clear this up before starting the throw in but if you didn't then there's not much you can do until the ball becomes dead. This could be when a basket is made in the wrong goal (award Team A two points, give Team A the ball for a throw in, and get them going in the right way), after a 10 second count (keep in mind you would keep counting even if Team A throws the ball at the basket as this is not considered a try), or several other possible stoppages of play.Under most circumstances in sanctioned school ball I would not "coach" the team that they are headed the wrong way once the ball became live but in the rigt situation I could be tempted. For the most part I think you say it loud and say it often before putting the ball in play and hope either the players or the coaches get it quick.

I don't follow the arguement that this is an officials error (in this OP) because they made it very ckear which direction they were supposed to be heading. If Team A inbounds the ball and starts the wrong way its a player/coach error regardless of where the defense lines up. As stated by others, the NFHS procedure being cited is for times when the officials actually screw up the throwin on their own accord.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Rich1

Agree that game management dictates that you clear this up before starting the throw in but if you didn't then there's not much you can do until the ball becomes dead. This could be when a basket is made in the wrong goal (award Team A two points, give Team A the ball for a throw in, and get them going in the right way), after a 10 second count (keep in mind you would keep counting even if Team A throws the ball at the basket as this is not considered a try), or several other possible stoppages of play.Under most circumstances in sanctioned school ball I would not "coach" the team that they are headed the wrong way once the ball became live but in the rigt situation I could be tempted. For the most part I think you say it loud and say it often before putting the ball in play and hope either the players or the coaches get it quick.

I don't follow the arguement that this is an officials error (in this OP) because they made it very ckear which direction they were supposed to be heading. If Team A inbounds the ball and starts the wrong way its a player/coach error regardless of where the defense lines up. As stated by others, the NFHS procedure being cited is for times when the officials actually screw up the throwin on their own accord.

First, there is no circumstance where you award team A two points and then give team A the ball. I'm sure that's not what you meant. Second when a team is attacking the wrong basket and the other team is defending that wrong basket, when you realize it, you stop it then. You don't have to wait for any certain thing to happen.

As posted earlier in this thread:

4-5-4: If by mistake officials permit a team to go the wrong direction, when discovered all points scored, fouls committed, and time consumed shall count as if each team had gone the proper direction. Play shall resume with each team going the proper direction based on bench location.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by just another ref

...Second when a team is attacking the wrong basket and the other team is defending that wrong basket, when you realize it, you stop it then. You don't have to wait for any certain thing to happen.

As posted earlier in this thread:

4-5-4: If by mistake officials permit a team to go the wrong direction, when discovered all points scored, fouls committed, and time consumed shall count as if each team had gone the proper direction. Play shall resume with each team going the proper direction based on bench location.

I 90% agree. I would just argue that you stop action when you determine you've allowed it to get to the point of a mistake, not necessarily immediately if you made no mistake to begin with. So in my OP, I saw a team was defending the wrong basket, but there had been no officials' mistake to that point. I would say that once I realize I have failed to call some kind of applicable violation, now I have made a mistake in allowing the teams to continue going the wrong direction, and 4-5-4 applies at that point.

Alternatively, if there is a violation, a foul, or a goal at the wrong basket, now we have another opportunity to point and verbalize the proper direction (maybe a little more deliberately this time).

[Rich1]

Originally Posted by just another ref

First, there is no circumstance where you award team A two points and then give team A the ball. I'm sure that's not what you meant.

Yep, that's what I meant - B gets points, A gets ball

Originally Posted by just another ref

4-5-4: If by mistake officials permit a team to go the wrong direction, when discovered all points scored, fouls committed, and time consumed shall count as if each team had gone the proper direction. Play shall resume with each team going the proper direction based on bench location.

This is not a 4-5-4 situation. In this case the officials did not "permit" a team to go the wrong way. The officials had CORRECTLY indicated to both teams the CORRECT way to go but they went the wrong way.

If we incorrectly apply 4-5-4 to this situation as some are suggesting then by extention the refs should stop the game on a take-away if for some reason the teams run the wrong way. I've never seen a team stopped from scoring in the wrong basket but I have seen the refs stop play after a basket to get everyone back on the right track and make sure the right team inbounds the ball afterwards.

Its as simple as cause and effect. Ask yourself who "caused" the teams to set up and go the wrong way. If it was the ref (pointed the wrong way, lined up facing the wrong direction for a jump ball, put the ball in play under the wrong basket) then I agree that 4-5-4 applies. But in the OP the refs did nothing to influence where the teams took up positions or which basket they ran towards after the throw in.

And what if the situation in the OP was exactly the same except that A2 ran to his own basket and scored? I guess for the sake of Team B we should apply 4-5-4 and stop the game before he scores since this must have been "caused" by the same "error" that the refs made in the original post.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Second when a team is attacking the wrong basket and the other team is defending that wrong basket, when you realize it, you stop it then. You don't have to wait for any certain thing to happen.

Stop posting this. You are dead wrong.

I even had a strange game several years ago in which a team wanted to win by at least 4, but not more than 10 due to tiebreakers for playoff seeding. They were attempting to avoid facing a specific team in the opening round.

Guess what happened in the last minute when this team was leading by 12? Yep, they purposely tried to score for the opponents and were being defended.