Wrong Way to Start the 4th

[Rich1]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Show me the part where it says it matters what the original cause of the problem is. It says "If by mistake officials permit a team to go the wrong way....." It tells you how to deal with the aftermath. If you see that both teams are actively playing the wrong way, and you don't stop it, then you are permitting it, which is indeed a mistake.

I can't show you what does not exist. We may "permit" a lot of things to happen during a game but that doesn't make it our fault when the outcome is less than desired. If we make an error then we should correct it as prescribed in the rules but not everything that we "permit" is an error. Sometimes its just bad basketball.

This reminds me of a middle school game I worked last year. A1 gets a rebound at his own goal and passes the ball out to A2 who turns and starts running to the wrong end. When he gets about 10 feet from the division line my partner jumps in front of him, puts both hands out and says "no, no, no; you are going the wrong way". I guess we should all be glad he didn't "permit" that mistake.

The difference between how you are applying 4-5-4 and how I am applying it is the way we are defining the word "mistake" and the emphasis you are placing on the word "permit".

You seem to be saying that although the officials did everything they were supposed to do because a enough people (10 players & 2 coaches) have screwed up which basket is their then the refs have made a mistake and permitted them to play at the wrong basket.

I am saying that if the refs have done what they were supposed to do (and they had in the OP) then it is on the coaches and the players to get it right. Again, let me clarify that if I saw them all setting up at the wrong ends I would try to tell them before putting the ball in play but I'm not delaying the game long because it ultimately rests on the coach to tell his players what to do, not me.

I have looked through several years of interpretations and reread that rule several times to find anything that supports your position but its just not there. If you can show me I will gladly change the way I apply this rule. If, by mistake, I permit the teams to go the wrong way then I will certainly stop the game to correct it. But as they are currently written, the rules do not allow us to halt the game just because the teams decide to go the wrong way.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Stop posting this. You are dead wrong.

I even had a strange game several years ago in which a team wanted to win by at least 4, but not more than 10 due to tiebreakers for playoff seeding. They were attempting to avoid facing a specific team in the opening round.

Guess what happened in the last minute when this team was leading by 12? Yep, they purposely tried to score for the opponents and were being defended.

Why did they even shoot at all when up by 9 or 10???

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Rich1

Ihis reminds me of a middle school game I worked last year. A1 gets a rebound at his own goal and passes the ball out to A2 who turns and starts running to the wrong end. When he gets about 10 feet from the division line my partner jumps in front of him, puts both hands out and says "no, no, no; you are going the wrong way". I guess we should all be glad he didn't "permit" that mistake.

No, I'm not advocating this. If one kid goes the wrong way a backcourt call will take care of it. But if I don't call the backcourt violation and all ten players run to the wrong end and set up to play offense and defense and then I realize the problem, that's when I'll stop things. And if they tell me at that point that they know what they're doing and one team is now trying to avoid a certain point spread and the opponent has decided to try to stop them from that, it's okay with me.

The more I think about it, this would be kind of interesting to watch. A halfcourt game. One team holds the ball, trying not to score. Then, if the other team makes a steal, that team tries to score in that basket on that same end of the court, hindered by the defense and a 9.5 second shot clock, as it were. Also, if a player has used his dribble, he won't be able to go for an offensive rebound because it would be a violation.

[La Rikardo]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The more I think about it, this would be kind of interesting to watch. A halfcourt game. One team holds the ball, trying not to score. Then, if the other team makes a steal, that team tries to score in that basket on that same end of the court, hindered by the defense and a 9.5 second shot clock, as it were. Also, if a player has used his dribble, he won't be able to go for an offensive rebound because it would be a violation.

It really is interesting to think about what would and what wouldn't be a violation if a team is attacking the wrong basket. Legally speaking, what would would ordinarily be a try would be an interrupted dribble in this scenario. So, in the situation of what would ordinarily be an unsuccessful try, the original shooter cannot touch the ball before it touches the ground. If the player makes an "attempt" at the goal after having dribbled, the player has committed an illegal dribble the moment the ball leaves the hand. If an offensive player fouls a defensive player during the "rebound", it is a team-control foul and the defensive team will not shoot free throws.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by La Rikardo

It really is interesting to think about what would and what wouldn't be a violation if a team is attacking the wrong basket. Legally speaking, what would would ordinarily be a try would be an interrupted dribble in this scenario. So, in the situation of what would ordinarily be an unsuccessful try, the original shooter cannot touch the ball before it touches the ground. If the player makes an "attempt" at the goal after having dribbled, the player has committed an illegal dribble the moment the ball leaves the hand. If an offensive player fouls a defensive player during the "rebound", it is a team-control foul and the defensive team will not shoot free throws.

I think when the player throws at the wrong goal, you consider it a pass unless that same player is first to touch after it hits the board. Then it becomes a dribble, possibly an illegal dribble. Team control foul on the rebound is one thing I hadn't thought about. The possibility of a ten second violation while a "shot" is in the air would be interesting.

I can't believe we're discussing this.

[La Rikardo]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I think when the player throws at the wrong goal, you consider it a pass unless that same player is first to touch after it hits the board. Then it becomes a dribble, possibly an illegal dribble. Team control foul on the rebound is one thing I hadn't thought about. The possibility of a ten second violation while a "shot" is in the air would be interesting.

I can't believe we're discussing this.

4-31 defines a pass as movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, bats, or rolls the ball to another player. Throwing the ball at the opponent's basket is not a pass. It is the start of a dribble which may become interrupted if he is not the first to touch the ball after it has touched the floor. Since this must be a dribble, a violation for an illegal dribble occurs the moment the ball leaves the player's hand if the player had previously dribbled.

[Rob1968]

Originally Posted by La Rikardo

4-31 defines a pass as movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, bats, or rolls the ball to another player. Throwing the ball at the opponent's basket is not a pass. It is the start of a dribble which may become interrupted if he is not the first to touch the ball after it has touched the floor. Since this must be a dribble, a violation for an illegal dribble occurs the moment the ball leaves the player's hand if the player had previously dribbled.

Don't we have another thread that deals with this?

In any event, Case Book 9.5, first situation, tells us that if A1 ends the dribble and then throws the ball against the opponents' backboard, it constitutes another dribble, . . . "provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it strikes . . . the board."

Also, please take a look at the definition of an interrupted dribble, and 9-5-2 & 3, regarding an illegal dribble. If the ball is touched by an opponent, or touches or is touched by another player, it is the end of a dribble, not the cause of an interrupted dribble.

[bob jenkins]

I'm invoking "The Game" (before rule 1). If the team is not trying "to throw the ball into its own basket and to prevent the other team from scoring" I'm ending it and letting the conference / district / state association decide what to do.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Why did they even shoot at all when up by 9 or 10???

Because they had to win by at least 4 or the opposing team would take the cover seed in the playoffs. So the team was worried that a 9 point lead could seriously cost them if the opponent scored a couple of quick baskets. Guess they figured it was easier and safer to be ahead by 12 and then just score in the wrong basket.