Just like a test question!

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by Adam

May seem absurd, but it's the rule. Going to your assigner with "well, I know something had to come off, and I thought it was probably 5 seconds, so I picked 3" could get you in trouble. Going to your assigner with "I know time should have come off, but none of us had a count so we left it alone" is backed by rule.

You can get away with the former in lower level games. I wouldn't try it in anything above middle school, though.

Just to clarify, that's not what I'd be going to my assignor saying. And that's not the thought process. As I said before, I'm not guessing.

I'd be following the rule that states "an official's count or other official information may be used to make a correction" and that a timing mistake can be corrected when the official "has definite information relative to the time involved".

The "official information" is that the ball was legally touched inbounds and some time has elapsed. The "definate information" is what I would get with my partners to determine ... specifically that "definitly at least X seconds had elapsed". A visible count is not necessary. If I'm observing a play and determine that a player was holding the ball but not-closely guarded for 3 seconds, passed the ball to a teammate who then shot, I have definite information that at least 3 seconds have elapsed, even though I did not have a visible count because the player was not closely guarded.

I'd be going to my assignor saying that I had definate knowledge that at least 3 seconds had elapsed and I used that knowledge to correct an obvious timing mistake. How is that incorrect by rule?

[PG_Ref]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

Just to clarify, that's not what I'd be going to my assignor saying. And that's not the thought process. As I said before, I'm not guessing.

I'd be following the rule that states "an official's count or other official information may be used to make a correction" and that a timing mistake can be corrected when the official "has definite information relative to the time involved".

The "official information" is that the ball was legally touched inbounds and some time has elapsed. The "definate information" is what I would get with my partners to determine ... specifically that "definitly at least X seconds had elapsed". A visible count is not necessary. If I'm observing a play and determine that a player was holding the ball but not-closely guarded for 3 seconds, passed the ball to a teammate who then shot, I have definite information that at least 3 seconds have elapsed, even though I did not have a visible count because the player was not closely guarded.

I'd be going to my assignor saying that I had definate knowledge that at least 3 seconds had elapsed and I used that knowledge to correct an obvious timing mistake. How is that incorrect by rule?

If you do not definitely know how much time, you simply can't guess. If an official had a closely guarded or backcourt count going, that's considered definite knowledge of how much time. We can't just arbitrarily pick a number.

5-10
ART. 1

The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information relative to the time involved. The exact time observed by the official may be placed on the clock.

[so cal lurker]

I really don't understand why some posters are going through contortions about what they will do without a count in game end situations to distort their guesses into something besides a guess when there is a very simple solution, which I believe was mentioned dozens of posts ago.

When in the end game situation, if youaren't responsible for a count, simply count as a backstop to the official timer until you know the clock actually started.

Am I missing something here?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by so cal lurker

I really don't understand why some posters are going through contortions about what they will do without a count in game end situations to distort their guesses into something besides a guess when there is a very simple solution, which I believe was mentioned dozens of posts ago.

When in the end game situation, if youaren't responsible for a count, simply count as a backstop to the official timer until you know the clock actually started.

Am I missing something here?

I've done it before (end of a 1st quarter) and would have no problems doing it again.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by so cal lurker

I really don't understand why some posters are going through contortions about what they will do without a count in game end situations to distort their guesses into something besides a guess when there is a very simple solution, which I believe was mentioned dozens of posts ago.

When in the end game situation, if youaren't responsible for a count, simply count as a backstop to the official timer until you know the clock actually started.

Am I missing something here?

I've gotten in the habit of having at least a mental count on all throw-ins until I see the clock starting. Twice I've ended a quarter (once was the end of a game) with my own count because I was paying attention.

In the middle of the quarter, I just want the timer to start the clock in a reasonable amount of time. End of a quarter, I'll be more strict.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

Just to clarify, that's not what I'd be going to my assignor saying. And that's not the thought process. As I said before, I'm not guessing.

I'd be following the rule that states "an official's count or other official information may be used to make a correction" and that a timing mistake can be corrected when the official "has definite information relative to the time involved".

The "official information" is that the ball was legally touched inbounds and some time has elapsed. The "definate information" is what I would get with my partners to determine ... specifically that "definitly at least X seconds had elapsed". A visible count is not necessary. If I'm observing a play and determine that a player was holding the ball but not-closely guarded for 3 seconds, passed the ball to a teammate who then shot, I have definite information that at least 3 seconds have elapsed, even though I did not have a visible count because the player was not closely guarded.

I'd be going to my assignor saying that I had definate knowledge that at least 3 seconds had elapsed and I used that knowledge to correct an obvious timing mistake. How is that incorrect by rule?

Where did you get 3 seconds?

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by Adam

Where did you get 3 seconds?

I was giving an example. If I was observing the player with the ball, and he held the ball for 3 seconds but wasn't closely guarded, then I'm not going to have a visible count, but I still know that he was guarded for 3 seconds and I could still use that information to correct a timing mistake. For someone to suggest that that would only be a "guess" because there was no visible count is ridiculous.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

I was giving an example. If I was observing the player with the ball, and he held the ball for 3 seconds but wasn't closely guarded, then I'm not going to have a visible count, but I still know that he was guarded for 3 seconds and I could still use that information to correct a timing mistake. For someone to suggest that that would only be a "guess" because there was no visible count is ridiculous.

I never suggested that. I don't happen to agree that a visible count is necessary: that's a legitimate point of contention.

If you have a mental count, that's enough. If you're not counting in your head, though, that's not definite knowledge: it's a guess.

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by Adam

I never suggested that. I don't happen to agree that a visible count is necessary: that's a legitimate point of contention.

If you have a mental count, that's enough. If you're not counting in your head, though, that's not definite knowledge: it's a guess.

I apologize. I misread your statement below to mean a visible count.

Originally Posted by Adam

If I don't have a count, I'm not doing anything, because I don't have enough information.

However, it was suggested by others that a visible count is required.

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

Can't use a three second count to take time off the clock, it must be a visible count.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I agree. Any count which is going to be used to remove time needs to be a visible count in this age of video. I'm not getting called in later to defend a mental count. The arm swings will show up on the video.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

I apologize. I misread your statement below to mean a visible count.




However, it was suggested by others that a visible count is required.

No worries, I realized the misunderstanding. It's not blatantly clear, but I had already agreed with bob when he challenged the post by SNIPER.

I will say this, though. If I'm going to end a quarter on my count, I'm using a visible count. I want THAT on tape.

[SNIPERBBB]

Our association wants a visible count to be used. Time is a very subjective measure and one persons count can be much slower or faster than what a clock would measure.