Mistaken substitution

[Adam]

Originally Posted by billyu2

That's correct alright. So, as Bob said, A2 doesn't necessarily have to come out but somebody does. And, as PG Ref said, A7 could be substituted for if the coach decided he didn't want him in there.

If I don't know who A7 reported for and the coach pulls him back before I find out, I'm not forcing a sub here. Once A7 tells A2, though, now A2 has been replaced. Coach doesn't have to play A7, but at that point A2 needs to wait for the clock to properly run.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Adam

If I don't know who A7 reported for and the coach pulls him back before I find out, I'm not forcing a sub here. Once A7 tells A2, though, now A2 has been replaced. Coach doesn't have to play A7, but at that point A2 needs to wait for the clock to properly run.

I've had cases where A6 comes in and yells "Billy, you're out" and the coach says "no, not Billy. I sent you in for Jimmy."

Jimmy leaves, Billy stays, no problem.

Now, if Billy gets off the court ...

If we keep this up we'll have the whole volleyball / soccer scenario of doing the exchange just to avoid problems.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I've had cases where A6 comes in and yells "Billy, you're out" and the coach says "no, not Billy. I sent you in for Jimmy."

Jimmy leaves, Billy stays, no problem.

Now, if Billy gets off the court ...

If we keep this up we'll have the whole volleyball / soccer scenario of doing the exchange just to avoid problems.

Good point. If Coach says, "Never mind, Robby, get back here," what do you do?

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

If we keep this up we'll have the whole volleyball / soccer scenario of doing the exchange just to avoid problems.

Fortunately, NFHS soccer rules for substitutions are similar to those of basketball. Soccer subs also don't report whom they're replacing; they just show up at the table (if there is one), like basketball, and aren't players until they're beckoned in. (The big difference is, when the clock is running, a soccer sub has to be at the table area when the ball goes out of bounds.)

In either sport, the way I've read it is, once they're beckoned in, someone has to go out. Or, as PG mentioned, someone else could come off the bench to replace the new player getting "pulled back." (Though, I believe you could only do that in soccer with a stopped clock.)

[La Rikardo]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Fortunately, NFHS soccer rules for substitutions are similar to those of basketball. Soccer subs also don't report whom they're replacing; they just show up at the table (if there is one), like basketball, and aren't players until they're beckoned in. (The big difference is, when the clock is running, a soccer sub has to be at the table area when the ball goes out of bounds.)

In either sport, the way I've read it is, once they're beckoned in, someone has to go out. Or, as PG mentioned, someone else could come off the bench to replace the new player getting "pulled back." (Though, I believe you could only do that in soccer with a stopped clock.)

Same goes for NCAA soccer. FIFA Laws, though, require that the player leave the field before the substitute may enter. This requirement is often relaxed at lower levels. When we do relax that requirement, we consider the substitute a player when he enters the field with the referee's permission. The player going out, at that point, is simply a substituted player who is on the field with the referee's permission. Play won't be restarted until that substitute player has left the field.

Also, since in NFHS and NCAA substitutes become players when beckoned by the referee, the player they're going in for has to leave. NCAA provides an exception to this -- the substitute may be withdrawn after being beckoned and the player they're supposed to be going in for may remain a player, but the substitute is charged with an entry. NFHS doesn't have this exception, probably because there are no limits on how many times a player may enter the game.

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by Adam

If I don't know who A7 reported for and the coach pulls him back before I find out, I'm not forcing a sub here. Once A7 tells A2, though, now A2 has been replaced. Coach doesn't have to play A7, but at that point A2 needs to wait for the clock to properly run.

FWIW, here is why that is not a good idea: Had a coach who, while his team was shooting a free throw would have A7 report and following the made free throw A7 was brought in. The coach would immediately change his mind and ask for A7 to return to the bench. In the meantime, of course, Team A had plenty of time to set up their press. The coach really didn't want anyone to come out. Fortunately, the officials recognized that crap very quickly and told the coach A7 is in. Someone HAS to come out.

[La Rikardo]

Originally Posted by billyu2

FWIW, here is why that is not a good idea: Had a coach who, while his team was shooting a free throw would have A7 report and following the made free throw A7 was brought in. The coach would immediately change his mind and ask for A7 to return to the bench. In the meantime, of course, Team A had plenty of time to set up their press. The coach really didn't want anyone to come out. Fortunately, the officials recognized that crap very quickly and told the coach A7 is in. Someone HAS to come out.

I agree with most of the comments that by rule in my original situation, an A player must leave the game (I don't think it has to be A2) and I think your situation is a good example of why the rule is the way it is. But also in my original situation, A was bringing in A6 anyway, so the officials are going to keep the ball from becoming live regardless of whether or not a player must leave the game. Is there a common sense explanation as to why, in my original situation, I'm telling A's coach that one of his player has to leave the game? I'm fully supportive of enforcing the rule to the letter here, I'd just want something to say to a coach beyond "that's the rule, sorry."

[billyu2]

[QUOTE=La Rikardo;948140]I agree with most of the comments that by rule in my original situation, an A player must leave the game (I don't think it has to be A2) and I think your situation is a good example of why the rule is the way it is. But also in my original situation, A was bringing in A6 anyway, so the officials are going to keep the ball from becoming live regardless of whether or not a player must leave the game. Is there a common sense explanation as to why, in my original situation, I'm telling A's coach that one of his player has to leave the game? I'm fully supportive of enforcing the rule to the letter here, I'd just want something to say to a coach beyond "that's the rule, sorry."[/QUOTE]
Well I guess you could be more specific and say "once we brought in A7 he became a player so someone has to come out." If you want you can add "A7 doesn't have to play if you want to send in a sub for him."

[Rich1]

Originally Posted by La Rikardo

I'd just want something to say to a coach beyond "that's the rule, sorry."

What else is there to say? By rule, once A7 is on the court to replace A2 then A7 is now a player, A2 is now bench personnel, and A2 must sit a tick before reentering the game. I would all some leeway if the coach is changing his mind quickly or if A7 obviously said the wrong number but once A2 is on his way to the bench and the intent is clear then A2 is sitting. However it gets explained to the coach is fine with me as long as it takes very little time to do it.