Mistaken clock not starting error

[JugglingReferee]

Here's the sitch.

Near end of quarter, 3.6s left. Backcourt endline throw-in. Thrower-in bounce passes the ball to A2, who doens't touch the ball. I'm T, keep my arm raised and eye the clock, becasue as we know, many timers start the clock when they think the ball is touched, not when my arm comes down. So the ball is bouncing, as yet untouched inbounds, and my P, the R, with his back to the ball, sees that the clock is not running. He whistles it dead and tells me that the clock wasn't running. At the whistle, the ball was bouncing right at half-court, still untouched, and B has dropped down to a zone. After the whistle went, A2 picks up the ball, and my P turns around to see A2 has it.

Comments?

[BktBallRef]

Tell your partner to turn his dumba$$ around and stop running with his head turned away from the play.

Then, go back and inbound the ball from the original throw-in spot.

[bob jenkins]

By rule, it's an inadvertant whistle with no team control -- go to the arrow.

In practice, what Tony said -- and no one will complain.

[Nevadaref]

That's one good thing about the recent change in the NCAA team control rule. Since there is now team control during a throw-in, you don't have to use the arrow.

For NFHS, if you really want to get it right, you have to use the arrow, and if it is going the other way, you'll get to throw the coach out.

A funny solution which you could use, and still do it by the book, would be to administer the AP throw-in to the opponents and as soon as the kid passes the ball, blow your whistle. Now you have another accidental whistle and the arrow is going back to the team which had it in the first place.

If the first arrow allowed the original team to retain possession, then simply have an accidental whistle during the next AP throw-in and fix it that way.

[JugglingReferee]

The advertent inadvertent whistle. I like it.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by JugglingReferee
The advertent inadvertent whistle. I like it.

It's actually false double inadvertant whistle.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by JugglingReferee
The advertent inadvertent whistle. I like it.

Nothing like some old NFL mechanics working their way into NFHS basketball.

The added bonus of Nevada's "false double inadvertant whistle" that he fails to mention is that you get to toss BOTH coaches.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by bob jenkins
By rule, it's an inadvertant whistle with no team control -- go to the arrow.

Are you sure about that??

My thought is that it is the rule to give it back to A.

A is originally due a throwin for some reason...an infraction. A gets the throwin due to the infraction unless another infraction occurs to supercede it.

Rule 6-3-3e: The ball becomes dead when neither team is in control and no goal or infraction or end of a quarter or extra period is involved.

If the whistle is blown before the throwin has been completed, an infraction is involved....the original infraction. A is still due a throwin for that infraction.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Tell your partner to turn his dumba$$ around and stop running with his head turned away from the play.

Then, go back and inbound the ball from the original throw-in spot.

Tony is correct in this case on all points. Team A receivest the ball for a throw-in at the original spot of its throw-in with 3.6 seconds on the clock.

The officials do NOT go to the AP Arrow in this case because when the Dumba$$, I am sorry, the L sounded his whistle, Team A's throw-in had not ended.

MTD, Sr.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Tony is correct in this case on all points. Team A receivest the ball for a throw-in at the original spot of its throw-in with 3.6 seconds on the clock.

The officials do NOT go to the AP Arrow in this case because when the Dumba$$, I am sorry, the L sounded his whistle, Team A's throw-in had not ended.

MTD, Sr.

Just where is there a rule suggesting that the throw-in not ending has ANYTHING to do with this play?

CB 7.5.4 says otherwise.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Camron Rust

Are you sure about that??

My thought is that it is the rule to give it back to A.

A is originally due a throwin for some reason...an infraction. A gets the throwin due to the infraction unless another infraction occurs to supercede it.

Rule 6-3-3e: The ball becomes dead when neither team is in control and no goal or infraction or end of a quarter or extra period is involved.

If the whistle is blown before the throwin has been completed, an infraction is involved....the original infraction. A is still due a throwin for that infraction.

CB 7.5.4, R 4-12-6.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by blindzebra

CB 7.5.4, R 4-12-6.

Agree. CB 7.5.4(c) to be a l'il more explicit.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

JR and BZ:

I am glad that both of you know the definition of team control. But I am sorry, but NFHS Casebook Play 7.5.4(c) does not apply to this play because CB 7.5.4(c) involves a field goal attempt, not a throw-in. And while there is not team control during a throw-in, Team A's throw-in had not ended when the Dumba$$, I mean L, accidently sounded his whistle. There is no rule that allows the officials to go to the AP Arrow in this situation and possibly take the ball away from Team A. The L has to eat his whistle and tell Coach B that he screwed up and Team A keeps the ball for a throw-in.

Lets make this play even more interesting. Team A is winning the game by one point and the AP Arrow is pointing toward Team B's basket. Are you really going to give the ball to Team B for a throw-in with 3.6 seconds left in the game. I hope not.

MTD, Sr.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
JR and BZ:

I am glad that both of you know the definition of team control. But I am sorry, but NFHS Casebook Play 7.5.4(c) does not apply to this play because CB 7.5.4(c) involves a field goal attempt, not a throw-in. And while there is not team control during a throw-in, Team A's throw-in had not ended when the Dumba$$, I mean L, accidently sounded his whistle. There is no rule that allows the officials to go to the AP Arrow in this situation and possibly take the ball away from Team A. The L has to eat his whistle and tell Coach B that he screwed up and Team A keeps the ball for a throw-in.

Lets make this play even more interesting. Team A is winning the game by one point and the AP Arrow is pointing toward Team B's basket. Are you really going to give the ball to Team B for a throw-in with 3.6 seconds left in the game. I hope not.

MTD, Sr.

Cite a rule or case play that states that ending the throw-in is germane.

Leave it to you to say that the rules covering team control has no baring because the specific case play does not specically address no team control during a throw-in.

A new low even for you. Team control is team control and once again it's MTD's OPINION versus what is the actual rule book.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
JR and BZ:

I am glad that both of you know the definition of team control. But I am sorry, but NFHS Casebook Play 7.5.4(c) does not apply to this play because CB 7.5.4(c) involves a field goal attempt, not a throw-in. And while there is not team control during a throw-in, Team A's throw-in had not ended when the Dumba$$, I mean L, accidently sounded his whistle. There is no rule that allows the officials to go to the AP Arrow in this situation and possibly take the ball away from Team A.

Gee, you don't want 7.5.4(c) to apply to this play, do you Mark?

What difference does it make if the inadvertant whistle occured during a throw-in or field goal attempt? In both cases, you have a live ball with neither team in control when the inadvertant whistle sounded. Both cases are covered under R6-4-3(e), which says that you go to the AP.

What rule do you plan on using to give a repeat throw-in?

PS- just for the record, in real life I'd do what Tony said to do too. Sell it quickly and get the ball back into play with a repeat throw-in. That's the fair way.