Question on Mistaken called 4th ball.

[GBFBUmp]

I am an umpire, but not for baseball only football. So I have a question on a situation in my 10 year-old's minor league game from the other night. Bottom of sixth, home team behind.

Runners are on 1st and 2nd. Batter watches pitch and umpire seems to call ball 4. I thought it was ball 3, but just figured I missed something while someone was talking to me. (these are kid umpires so I am not looking to hang anyone, just looking for what real call should be if a miscommunication between ump and players takes place).

Batter walks to first base, runners on 1st and 2nd advance to 2nd and 3rd. Opposing coach comes out on field and starts yelling that it is only ball 3, instructs the catcher to throw the ball to second baseman and tag out runner who had been on 1st and is now on second. Then he says "game over" . We ask the umpire (13 year old kid) was it ball 4 and did he send him... he hemmed and hawed and said he didn't send him and it wasn't ball 4.


If in fact it were ball three and the batter and others thought umpire had said ball 4 and to take walk, but the umpire after everyone moves says, "no, I didn't give him the walk, and it was only ball 3" . What can the defense do, and are the players that had been on base able to be tagged out if they advance thinking a walk was called.


This is what result was. No out was called. Batter that thought he had a walk was sent off the field, base runners were moved back to original bases and next batter in lineup was up to bat.

My gut feel is that if catcher still had the ball, and the 2 base runners advanced, it was simply like a steal but at a walking pace. The original batter should have been back up to take final pitch.

Thanks,
Tim

[greymule]

In MLB, runners have advanced legally when everybody thought a call was ball 4 but it wasn't.

(I have never done LL, so I don't know how they would rule.)

[tibear]

By the rules, your gut was right. Very slow steal of 2nd and 3rd. Batter put back at the plate.

That's why umpires should verbalize ball four or he should have called the batter back after a couple of steps towards first.

If the umpire did send the runner to first by mistake, it doesn't change anything with regards to correcting the situation.

[GBFBUmp]

Thanks guys.


I feel for the umpires in this league as they are kids. I remember what its like to start out in officiating, so, when I can I give them "atta boys" so they keep at it. This particular kid is quite quiet and I think just needs some confidence.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by tibear

By the rules, your gut was right. Very slow steal of 2nd and 3rd. Batter put back at the plate.

That's why umpires should verbalize ball four or he should have called the batter back after a couple of steps towards first.

If the umpire did send the runner to first by mistake, it doesn't change anything with regards to correcting the situation.

I disagree that we should verbalize ball 4. I never verbalize ball 4 and the players know when they have walked. Also the players in the field need to know the situation. Just like a dropped third strike with a runner on first base and less than 2 outs. If the catcher throws over to first base, we are not supposed to tell the world they are making a mistake.

In this case you should bring the batter back to the plate and allow all runners that advanced to their rightful base.

Peace

[sargee7]

I agree that this a is just a steal at a walking pace. the defense needs to be aware of what's going on.

This guy is ALSO a jerk:

"Batter walks to first base, runners on 1st and 2nd advance to 2nd and 3rd. Opposing coach comes out on field and starts yelling that it is only ball 3, instructs the catcher to throw the ball to second baseman and tag out runner who had been on 1st and is now on second. Then he says "game over" ."

You said they were young umps, both of them? If so, this is a mistake. never put a young, inexperienced ump on the field alone, without a more experience ump. the coaches, like this jerk, will eat them alive.

[GBFBUmp]

Sargee7,

Yes, the opposing coach is a jerk. Not first time I was involved with his idiocy.

The league uses all teenagers for umpires, and most coaches understand this and are quite even keeled. This guy isn't. In fact, I had a run in with him 3 years ago when our boys were still in "dad pitch" at 6-7 years old . He freaked out at our team's coach for starting the game when he wasn't there (he was 20 minutes past game time and his assistant was ok to start w/o him).

Funny thing (maybe not so much) ,in a small town, is that his son and my oldest son are on the same booster basketball team, and his daughter and my daughter are also on a tournament basketball team. Glad for my youngest he's only got 2 kids

Originally Posted by sargee7

I agree that this a is just a steal at a walking pace. the defense needs to be aware of what's going on.

This guy is ALSO a jerk:

"Batter walks to first base, runners on 1st and 2nd advance to 2nd and 3rd. Opposing coach comes out on field and starts yelling that it is only ball 3, instructs the catcher to throw the ball to second baseman and tag out runner who had been on 1st and is now on second. Then he says "game over" ."

You said they were young umps, both of them? If so, this is a mistake. never put a young, inexperienced ump on the field alone, without a more experience ump. the coaches, like this jerk, will eat them alive.

If it was only ball 3, what the he|| was the coach doing out on the field? No matter what, the ball is still live. No doubt about it the umpire caved in to the coach. Big lesson to learn.

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by GBFBUmp

Opposing coach comes out on field and starts yelling that it is only ball 3

herein lies the problem, we have a coach.
How can anyone expect an untrained 13 yr old to stand up to a yelling adult.
At this level, the first thing LL should teach these young guys is "if anyone yells at you, eject them." and then give them a $5 bonus for every ejection.

[RPatrino]

Coach: "Game Over"
Blue: "For you it is!!"