20 Second disqualification count and FT

[Raymond]

we are also not supposed to grant a timeout until after the replacement is beckoned. not sure where that is written.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

we are also not supposed to grant a timeout until after the replacement is beckoned. not sure where that is written.

5-8-3b

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rich1

It seems as though there is no clear cut and official guide to how this should be handled and that seems to be the best way in my view until further clarification from above my pay grade.

Is the NFHS above your pay grade?

2007-08 Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 1: B1 is injured to the point that bench personnel are beckoned to the court. After B1 has been safely moved to the bench, Team B's head coach is notified that a substitute is required and instructs the timer to begin the 20-second replacement interval. Just as the interval begins, two substitutes from Team A approach the scorer's table to enter the game. RULING: Substitutes from either team may enter the game during this dead-ball period until the officials are ready to put the ball in play. The replacement interval is only for the substitute required for B1. If an eligible substitute does not report for B1 by the end of 20 seconds, a technical foul is assessed directly to the Team B head coach. (3-3-1d; 3-3-5; 10-5-3 Penalty)

2003-04 NFHS BASKETBALL RULES INTERPRETATIONS
SITUATION 3: A5 is called for a fifth foul. The proper official notifies the head coach and instructs the timer to begin timing the replacement interval. After the 20-second warning horn and before the required substitute for A5 approaches the scorer’s table, (a) B6 and B7 report to the official scorer; (b) A6, who is replacing A1 reports to the official scorer; or (c) A3 requests a time-out. RULING: In (a) and (b), the properly reported substitutes shall be permitted to enter the game. In (c), a time-out shall not be granted while a replacement for A5 is pending. (3-3-1d; 5-8-3b)

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

we are also not supposed to grant a timeout until after the replacement is beckoned. not sure where that is written.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

5-8-3b

Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, shall be stopped when an official:
Grants a player’s/head coach’s oral or visual request for a time-out,
such request being granted only when: The ball is dead, unless replacement of a disqualified, or injured player(s),
or a player directed to leave the game is pending, and a substitute(s) is
available and required.

The "don't grant a timeout rule" is very clear. Why is the "don't beckon substitutes rule" not clear? Because it doesn't exist? If it's not illegal, then it must be legal.

[Rich1]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Is the NFHS above your pay grade?

2007-08 Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 1: B1 is injured to the point that bench personnel are beckoned to the court. After B1 has been safely moved to the bench, Team B's head coach is notified that a substitute is required and instructs the timer to begin the 20-second replacement interval. Just as the interval begins, two substitutes from Team A approach the scorer's table to enter the game. RULING: Substitutes from either team may enter the game during this dead-ball period until the officials are ready to put the ball in play. The replacement interval is only for the substitute required for B1. If an eligible substitute does not report for B1 by the end of 20 seconds, a technical foul is assessed directly to the Team B head coach. (3-3-1laed ot red; 3-3-5; 10-5-3 Penalty)

2003-04 NFHS BASKETBALL RULES INTERPRETATIONS
SITUATION 3: A5 is called for a fifth foul. The proper official notifies the head coach and instructs the timer to begin timing the replacement interval. After the 20-second warning horn and before the required substitute for A5 approaches the scorer’s table, (a) B6 and B7 report to the official scorer; (b) A6, who is replacing A1 reports to the official scorer; or (c) A3 requests a time-out. RULING: In (a) and (b), the properly reported substitutes shall be permitted to enter the game. In (c), a time-out shall not be granted while a replacement for A5 is pending. (3-3-1d; 5-8-3b)

Agree that subs can be beckoned in at anytime during this process but am holding on to the fact that I get to decide when to beckon them. If all is going well, coach isn't a problem, and bringing them in now won't create confusion then bring 'em in. But if I feel the situation dictates that we be certain who is subbing for who or that the coach might want to play games then I have no problem making them all wait at the table for a few more seconds. Likewise, in some situations it might make sense to get the waiting subs in asap to make it easier to deal with the coach and the replacement procedure.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rich1

Agree that subs can be beckoned in at anytime during this process ... in some situations it might make sense to get the waiting subs in asap to make it easier to deal with the coach and the replacement procedure.

We are in full agreement.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Adam

No other subs may enter until that sub has been beckoned in.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

You do not admit other subs until the replacement player has been beckoned in.

After researching the statement "do not admit other subs until the replacement player has been beckoned in" over the weekend, I have come to the conclusion that this rule doesn't really exist.

Keep I mind that I originally thought that it did exist, and simply wanted a citation to hang my hat on. Without a current rulebook citation, and without a current casebook citation, to back up the statement, and with two annual interpretations (below), one as recent as seven years ago, that refute that statement, I have changed my mind, and have concluded that the rule really doesn't exist, and, if it's not illegal, then it's legal.

2007-08 Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 1: B1 is injured to the point that bench personnel are beckoned to the court. After B1 has been safely moved to the bench, Team B's head coach is notified that a substitute is required and instructs the timer to begin the 20-second replacement interval. Just as the interval begins, two substitutes from Team A approach the scorer's table to enter the game. RULING: Substitutes from either team may enter the game during this dead-ball period until the officials are ready to put the ball in play. The replacement interval is only for the substitute required for B1. If an eligible substitute does not report for B1 by the end of 20 seconds, a technical foul is assessed directly to the Team B head coach. (3-3-1laed ot red; 3-3-5; 10-5-3 Penalty)

2003-04 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 3: A5 is called for a fifth foul. The proper official notifies the head coach and instructs the timer to begin timing the replacement interval. After the 20-second warning horn and before the required substitute for A5 approaches the scorer’s table, (a) B6 and B7 report to the official scorer; (b) A6, who is replacing A1 reports to the official scorer; or (c) A3 requests a time-out. RULING: In (a) and (b), the properly reported substitutes shall be permitted to enter the game. In (c), a time-out shall not be granted while a replacement for A5 is pending. (3-3-1d; 5-8-3b)

I believe that the reason why some, including me, initially believed that the statement "do not admit other subs until the replacement player has been beckoned in" was correct, was that they were confusing it with a similar statement, also involving a replacement player, "do not grant any timeouts until the replacement player has been beckoned in". This is a real rule:

5-8-3b: Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, shall be stopped when an official:
Grants a player’s/head coach’s oral or visual request for a time-out,
such request being granted only when: The ball is dead, unless replacement of a disqualified, or injured player(s),
or a player directed to leave the game is pending, and a substitute(s) is
available and required.

Another cause of confusion was the following rule:

3-3-1-C-Exception:
A substitute who desires to enter shall report to the scorer, giving his/her number.
c. During multiple free throws resulting from personal fouls, substitutions may be made only
before the final attempt in the sequence and after the final attempt has been converted.
EXCEPTION: When a player is required by rule to be replaced prior to administering the free
throw(s), then all other substitutes who have legally reported may also enter the game.

This exception is only for multiple free throws. If we have substitutes waiting at the table when a two shot foul is called, they normally have to wait until after the first shot. However, if said foul causes a player to be disqualified, then all (existing substitutes, and replacement for disqualified player) can enter before the first free throw.

This rule (above) must not be generalized to mean "do not admit other subs until the replacement player has been beckoned in".

The only fly in the ointment that I can see is this twelve year old annual interpretation:

2002-03 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 3: A1 fouls out of the game. The Team A coach talks to a substitute and within 15 seconds sends the substitute to the table to report in the game. A Team B player then requests a time-out. RULING: Since a time-out may not be granted until a disqualified player is replaced, the administering official should ask the substitute at the table if he/she is the replacement for A1. If so, the time-out may be granted. If not, the substitute shall remain at the table and the coach must still replace A1 within the specified time frame before the time-out may be granted. (3-3-1;10-5-1d; 5-8-3b)

There are two problems with this annual interpretation, one minor, and one major. The first is that it's complicated by a request for a timeout. The second is that this twelve year old interpretation has been "replaced" by two newer interpretations (above).

Can we put this to bed now?

[Sharpshooternes]

Had a girls sub varsity game a few years back. A1 drives to the basket and B1 is still moving after A1 goes airborne. I have a blocking foul on B1. This is B1's fifth foul. Coach does not like the call at all. I tell her it is the fifth foul and give her a quick one sentence reason why I called what I called. She says "I am done talking to you!" I then turn to the timekeeper and ask for a 20 second replacement interval. 5 seconds. Horn. Coach is just sitting there doing nothing except being angry. 15 seconds and then horn. Whack! T for Bs coach. She says, "I get 30 seconds!" Me: No, you get 20 seconds. Coach: well that wasn't 20 seconds. Me: Coach I had the timer time it, and that was 20 seconds." Made me laugh then and still does now. Silly coaches.

If she doesn't want to talk to me, I am not going to bother with her. Maybe she learned her lesson.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

She says, "I get 30 seconds!"

She was correct, back when she rode her horse to the game.

(Am I right Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.?)

[so cal lurker]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

She was correct, back when she rode her horse to the game.

(Am I right Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.?)

Nah, it was 60 seconds back when . . . but I believe it went to 30 before it went to 20) . . .(and I'm sure Mark or Bob will correct if I'm wrong)

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

and give her a quick one sentence reason why I called what I called.

I've learned not to do this unless they ask. It never seems to end well when I volunteer it.

As for the rest of the story, I would have wanted to add, "time goes faster when you're pouting."

[crosscountry55]

You're right. It was 30 when I started following the game's finer points back in the early 90s. Then it changed to 20 because coaches were taking too much liberty in getting a "free" timeout.

During OT of the Ok St. vs. Mizzou game last night there was a foul out and the announcers were criticizing how long it was taking (this after several monitor reviews that had already made the game take forever). The Ok. St. coach totally milked it for as many seconds as he could get. I think at one point he even said something to the officials about checking something on the monitor, they bought it, and he turned right around for more free "timeout" time with his players. That was his plan the whole time. And then it was hard getting him out of the huddle.

Could the officials have whacked Ok. St. coach with a T? Let us use the three-pronged test for technical fouls:

Does it fit? No (OT, close game, coaches just trying to coach)
Is it effective? Yes.
Can it be defended? Yes.

So I wouldn't give the T because it doesn't fit the situation (not good for the game at that point).

The NCAA rules committee could look at this and make a POE, but I don't think that would change much. It's like improving pace of play in baseball, i.e. very very hard to do.

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by Adam

I've learned not to do this unless they ask. It never seems to end well when I volunteer it.

As for the rest of the story, I would have wanted to add, "time goes faster when you're pouting."

She did ask. She didn't like the explanation and then decided to be a PITA.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

She did ask. She didn't like the explanation and then decided to be a PITA.

Sadly, this is the #1 reason that I don't work girls basketball. The female coaches seem to gripe and complain far too much.

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Sadly, this is the #1 reason that I don't work girls basketball. The female coaches seem to gripe and complain far too much.

I have seen little difference between gender of teams or gender of coaches as to who gripes more. They all gripe too much.